Monte on Origins awards and ENnies

JoeGKushner said:
Normally I keep out of the old celebs duking it out, but... unless I'm aboslutely positive about what someone said or wrote (and even that becomes a problem as certain individuals now go back and edit their blogs/logs/etc... in the real world and role playing community), I'd never bother to mention it. If it's hazy, don't quote it.

Please note that I never claimed to be quoting anything. I used the words "pretty much" and "effectively", which are indicators that what I said was not an exact quote, nor meant to be treated as an exact quote. And I do admit that while it is possible that I may have misremembered exatly what was said, but that overall gist of what was said was what I got out of those original comments.

Besides, I am far from being a "celeb", nor would I ever like to be classed as one. At the thought of anybody saying I am any sort of celeb (let alone an 'old' one), all I can do is shudder and say, "Yech!" To swipe an old military comment, "I work for a living". :D
 

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Michael Morris said:
In this system there's nothing to gain by trying to give a product a "low rating" as in years past, but if you want to rank the products you can. Note that in this system the worst you can do to a product you don't like is simply abstain casting a ballot.
So your best strategic voting would be to cast a ballot for those products you *don't* know, but don't cast a ballot for those products you know you dislike.

If you vote intuitively, i.e. only rank the products you know and abstain from ranking the ones you don't know, you are essentially saying "I'm grading this unknown product as worse than the very worst product on the list I do know about".

Just saying... ;)


By the way, Morris... have you decided how to assign 2nd place (or will there be a bronze medal as well this year)? There are a number of ways to do this in this scheme, all of which can give you different outcomes:

1) Leave out the #1 winner and redo the whole process.
2) #2 is whomever has the second most votes after a #1 has been found
3) Run the runoff until only two candidates remain (instead of until one has >50% of the votes).

Personally, I like the last option. The second has some weird properties, and you probably want to stay away from that. The first option has a chance of giving you a #2 which is very similar to the #1, because all those people who voted for #1 now get to weigh in for #2 as well. The third option will tend to give a bit more variety among the winners, because your vote will either go to the #1 or the #2, not both.

For example, if the products are split between WotC and White Wolf products of fairly equal quality, the first option will be more likely to result in two WotC winners, because there simply are more WotC voters. In the third option you're likely to get a WotC product as #1, and a WW product as #2 - I kinda like that extra variety.
 


Thanks Morrus!

Just make sure to have something on the voting page that says

"DO NOT RANK PRODUCTS YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE WIN! Don't even rank them last - don't rank them at all!"

Otherwise, I can guarantee you there will be lots of people voting "5" for a product they really dislike - thereby putting it *above* all products they know nothing about.

Personally, I find the semantics of this kind of vote rather counterintuitive, and it's almost the opposite of what we had last year (score the ones you know, abstain from the ones you don't know).


PS: The first sentence under "Plurality Systems" is wrong - that describes Approval Voting, where you can vote for as many products as you like. The example definitely points to the standard "one-person-one-vote" system instead, where every voter gets to vote for one product only.

PPS: I thought you guys kinda liked that last year's voting procudure didn't penalize products because of lack of familiarity. This one will *definitely* penalize the less well known products - was that a conscious decision? Just wondering...
 
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The launch screen of the voting page currently reads as follows.

Welcome to the 2005 ENnies voting interface. On this screen you are presented with the nominees for each award that will be presented at the 2005 awards on Friday, August 19th at the Indianapolis Gencon. For each category you have a number of votes depending on the number of nominees - up to four. For the first vote select your first choice for that category. For your second vote select your second choice, if you have one, and so on until you have made a choice for each vote if you wish. You are not obliged to vote on all categories, and you are not obliged to fill out more votes than you want.

This is what happens with your votes. When the final vote tally is taken the computer will total up all the "first votes" and see if any nominee has more than 50% of the vote. If none do, then the computer drops the nominee which got the fewest vote and recounts. During the recount the computer uses the "second vote" of anyone who voted for the dropped nominee. The computer repeats this process, using the lower ranked votes as necessary, until a winner is determined. Once this occurs, the winner is set aside and the whole process repeats to determine the winner of the silver ENnie award.

All of the award categories are on this page. At the very bottom of this page is the submit button - click it when you are happy with your choices. Your IP address will be logged with the vote, and multiple votes from the same IP will be rejected.
 

Conaill said:
Thanks Morrus!

Just make sure to have something on the voting page that says

"DO NOT RANK PRODUCTS YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE WIN! Don't even rank them last - don't rank them at all!"

Otherwise, I can guarantee you there will be lots of people voting "5" for a product they really dislike - thereby putting it *above* all products they know nothing about.

I think it's made clear that you're not ranking products, but that you're casting a vote as to who you want to win.

Personally, I find the semantics of this kind of vote rather counterintuitive, and it's almost the opposite of what we had last year (score the ones you know, abstain from the ones you don't know).

And cheat like Hell doling out 1's for stuff you hate and 10's for things you like. Sorry, but no.

PPS: I thought you guys kinda liked that last year's voting procudure didn't penalize products because of lack of familiarity. This one will *definitely* penalize the less well known products - was that a conscious decision? Just wondering...

No voting system is perfect, and someone will complain about any system we use, so we're going for something that causes the least bellyaching overall.
 

Michael Morris said:
And cheat like Hell doling out 1's for stuff you hate and 10's for things you like. Sorry, but no.
Oh, I never suggested going back to scoring without any restrictions! In fact, I was one of the people arguing against that last year. IRV is a much better choice, but I am worried people who voted last year may not realize the very different interpretation of low votes vs non-votes this year. How about just adding the following sentence to the first paragraph: "If you don't like a product, just don't vote for it!".

By the way, the voting specs posted earlier differ from the launch screen description in how the second place winners are determined! The voting specs suggest what I called "option 3" above: eliminate candidates until only two remain, The launch screen seems to suggest my "option 1": eliminate the #1 winner and redo the process. See above for why you probably don't want to do that...
 
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Rasyr said:
Awards CAN be marketing tools, however, that is not supposed to be their primary purpose. Their primary purpose is to be an award, for excellence, for quality, for whatever the awards is given for.

However, least year after the ENnies, a few companies did complain because they felt that they could not use the awards as a marketing tool because the awards were given past the "3 month window"/life-cycle of their products. That was a large issue for some publishers.

The viability of using an award as a marketing tool is left up to the award winner. It should not be the main focus of the award itself.
I just wanted to make a comment here if I may. I think that this "three month window/life cycle" mentality for products is one of the real problems behind the gaming industry at the moment. I don't think the sky is falling or anything like that, but the notion of having to move on to the next product after such a short time has really hurt businesses.

What I mean by this is that if you are concerned about only keeping a product on the shelf for a very short time, it tends to have a shorter development cycle and things like formatting and editting are taken as less important. Once you have a reputation for making throw-away products, your company is not going to get my business any more.

When it comes to gaming product, I buy a fair amount: both as PDF and print. Unless I know the author or the company has a stellar track record, I'm going to wait at least a month or two before I buy something. With some companies, this means I'm not going to buy the product at all. I know a lot of company reps have come in and said that the three month window is a fact of life, but I wonder if it's not a self-fufilling prophesy.

All I know is that the companies I tend to buy product from tend to keep their products in the store and to have core game lines that I can direct my players to, while the ones that I don't buy, don't. As an example from this very thread, I can buy Arcana Evolved, Arcana Unearthed and HARP at my game store at the moment. That tells me both Rasyr and Monte are keeping product in the store, which means I can introduce new players to their systems...which means they can get new players to buy more of their products...

File that into the "for what it's worth file."

--Steve
 

SteveC said:
I just wanted to make a comment here if I may. I think that this "three month window/life cycle" mentality for products is one of the real problems behind the gaming industry at the moment. I don't think the sky is falling or anything like that, but the notion of having to move on to the next product after such a short time has really hurt businesses.
There is actually a term for this mentality. It is called the Frontlist Syndrome. Now, I am by no means an expert on it, and actually just barely understand it myself. But in short, it is simply the fact that this short life cycle mentality feeds on itself. It is also a large contributor to that death spiral thing that Mearls and Dancey have mentioned (though neither bothered to include it in their explanations).

Unfortunately, once a company gets into the Frontlist Syndome, it is very very hard to pull yourself out of.
SteveC said:
What I mean by this is that if you are concerned about only keeping a product on the shelf for a very short time, it tends to have a shorter development cycle and things like formatting and editting are taken as less important. Once you have a reputation for making throw-away products, your company is not going to get my business any more.
Yup, like I mention above, it feeds off itself, and the company often ends up either putting out a ton of product every month just to keep afloat or slowly going under.

The Frontlist Syndrome has been around for a long long time. CCGs made it a lot more noticable and prevalent.Also, the OGL made this a lot, lot worse as well.Suddenly there were hundreds of companies putting out products every single month, and then moving on to the next thing, trying to get it out before somebody else used the same concept. There was a lot of paralell development going on for many concepts and themes, and this actually hurt the industry more than it helped (especially since almost nobody was using anybody else's OGC, but developing their own instead).

Then you have distributors... Distributors often tend to encourage the Frontlist Syndrome because it means less older stock on their shelves, and thus they have less to push and can concentrate on the "new" stuff rather than an increasing amount of backstock.

Then came the fulfillment houses like Wizard's Attic and Osseum. Both were loved by distributors because that meant even less overhead for them, as the fulfillment houses were acting as backstock wharehouses and this thus increased the profits for the distributors. Both of these fulfillment houses have since died, Wizard Attic taking a number of companies with it, and Osseum hurting a large number of companies (some more than others, though I don't think that any actually died from it). The fulfillment house model just isn't a very solid one overall. Of course, part of Osseum's troubles came from being involved with book-trade distributors (will explain a little about that at the bottom).


SteveC said:
When it comes to gaming product, I buy a fair amount: both as PDF and print. Unless I know the author or the company has a stellar track record, I'm going to wait at least a month or two before I buy something. With some companies, this means I'm not going to buy the product at all. I know a lot of company reps have come in and said that the three month window is a fact of life, but I wonder if it's not a self-fufilling prophesy.
It is not quite a fact of life for those that follow the current 3 teir business model in the industry, but close to it. The distributors actually have a much greater impact on what you can find in your local game store than the actual companies do. Personally, I do not think that this is a good thing, but it also something that is hard to break out of. I know that there are a lot of stores who don't carry ICE products. Why? Because they only deal with one distributor (the largest), who also happens to refuse to carry our products (because of a personal grudge by one VP - even though his regional wharehouses have asked them to carry us). Nothing we can do about that, other than to encourage our fans to print out a copy of our distributor list and take it to those stores..

Oops, slight ramble... back on topic now...

SteveC said:
All I know is that the companies I tend to buy product from tend to keep their products in the store and to have core game lines that I can direct my players to, while the ones that I don't buy, don't. As an example from this very thread, I can buy Arcana Evolved, Arcana Unearthed and HARP at my game store at the moment. That tells me both Rasyr and Monte are keeping product in the store, which means I can introduce new players to their systems...which means they can get new players to buy more of their products...
Well, that wouldn't be me keeping our product in stores... hehe... That would be my boss. And that is because he isn't following the older 3 teir business model.

He simply changed the way that we deal with our distributors. Rather than them ordering when they run out, we do more of a consignment type of thing. We setup a "floorplan" with them, and send them the product. Each month, they send us a report of what they have sold, along with payment for sold product (according to whatever terms the boss has worked out with them). We then refill that floorplan. The boss has this setup with almost all (if not all) of our domestic distributors, and is working on similar deals with our foreign ones.
SteveC said:
File that into the "for what it's worth file."
Same with my post. :D

Book-trade distributors - These are the distributors that deal with book stores such as Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks, Amazon, etc. They work a little bit differently than normal distributors. The biggest difference being that they require a return policy. They order books, and pay on pre-arranged terms just like other distributors, however, they also require that companies that they purchase from accept returns as well. And guess what. Come around the end of the year, they are going to be returning books because the less they have on their shelves for the year end inventory reports, the better their accounting looks. Unfortunately, since they are returning products that they have already paid for, this means a refund to them, which can really screw up the accounting and cash flows of the companies to whom books have been returned. Only the largest companies can really afford to eat these costs.

While I do not know for certain, it is a good bet that this return policy was a factor in what happened to Osseum.
 

Rasyr said:
There is actually a term for this mentality. It is called the Frontlist Syndrome...like I mention above, it feeds off itself, and the company often ends up either putting out a ton of product every month just to keep afloat or slowly going under.

Another thought to add: "Frontlist Syndrome" is not just in RPG's, it is built into modern culture with increasing prevalence over the past 50 years or so; music singles and albums are considered "old" if they are over a month old, and new TV series are likelier to get cancelled within weeks unless they immediately bring in ratings on par with shows that are years old and have established audiences. My personal opinion is that it is a byproduct of the increasing Information Age of the past 100 years, and something whose cycle is only changed if the cultural zeitgeist (for lack of a better word) changes.
 

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