D&D (2024) Moon druid math.

[mellored]

You don't have to give your Sabre-tooth tiger tentacles.

But the "pick a feature" directly allows for it.

How do I play a wolf at high levels without a template?

By writing out all the things that would scale in a template.

I.e.
Your AC is 13+Wis
Your HP is equal to your Druid HP + 3x your druid level in THP.
Use your Druid saves.
On each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll using a weapon or a Beast form's attack in Wild Shape, you can cause the target to take an extra 1d8. This increases to 2d8 at level 15.

You're kinda only keeping the beast actions, movement, senses, and maybe a skill.

Scaling is a template.

templates are scaling. But not all scaling is a template.

Rogues sneak attack scales without a template.

The other part of scaling is that not all beasts start at the same CR/level. A CR 1 wolf with +5 to their base stats because the Druid is level 18 is not as powerful as a CR 6 Ancient Dire Wolf whose higher base stats are also increased by +5 because the Druid is level 18.

Your beast attacks are equal to your spell attack modifier. Any DC is equal to your Spell DC.

It would feel weird if your Druid level affected the wildshape less if the base form started at CR6, but that is how it would have to work for the two beasts to be comparable at high levels.

Higher CR beast are just harder to transform into. Thus don't get as much benefit.

Or at least that's my attempt to make an in-game excuse.

 

[mellored]

Here is the playtest rules formatted as a template. (Plus scaling to-hit).

When you wild shape, choose one of your prepared beast forms.


Wild Shape
AC: 13+Wis
HP: yours + 3x druid level THP
Size: Beasts
Speed: Beasts
Str: beasts, Dex: beast, Con: beasts, Wis: yours, Int: yours, Cha: yours.
Skills: Yours or beast, whichever is higher
Senses: Beasts
Saves: yours or the beasts, whichever is higher.

You gain special features of your beast, such as spider climb, except any lair features.

Limited Spell Casting: you can cast spells on your circle list.

Actions
You can perform the action of your chosen beast, except lair actions.
Your attack bonus is equal to your spell attack.
Your DC is equal to your spell DC.
At druid level 7, increase by 1d8
At druid level 14, increase by another 1d10
At druid level 15, increase by another 1d8

Moonlight Step (level 10), you can teleport as a bonus action...
Level 14, you can take a willing creature with you when you teleport.



Actually seems a bit cleaner this way. Makes it clear which stat is which.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

But the "pick a feature" directly allows for it.

Yes, and like the Battle Master, you don't choose the option that does not support your personal fantasy. Do you think most people will choose what they think is the most powerful combo of abilities for optimization purposes and then complain they were forced to, which ruined their imagined fantasy? "I HAD to give my bear tentacles for the reach, and that makes me angry that my bear feels like a mutant!"

Just choose the abilities that makes sense for your bear to have. Heck, you can even have a list of ability descriptions, and a second list of "animal-types" that suggest what abilities might best represent that theme.

Ursines: Get A, B, and C abilities
Felines: Get F, N, and O abilities
Canines: Get D, E, and L abilities
Birds of Prey: Get X, Y, and Z abilities

By writing out all the things that would scale in a template. templates are scaling. But not all scaling is a template. Rogues sneak attack scales without a template. Your beast attacks are equal to your spell attack modifier. Any DC is equal to your Spell DC.

But how are these "scaling" rules supposed to be written, and where are these rules supposed to live? Will every Beast in the Monster Manual become a scaling template because of Wildshape? Would it only be beasts? Sounds like PC rules outside of the PH. Are all Beasts stat blocks supposed to be added to the PH appendix in another format? How about future-published beasts?

Theory means nothing if it can't be physically published in the PH. This isn't a white room design space for a digital game.

 

[mellored]

Yes, and like the Battle Master,

The Battlemaster would have a lot of trouble fitting in as a wizard subclass and would fit better on a martial class (i.e. barbarian)

you can even have a list of ability descriptions, and a second list of "animal-types" that suggest what abilities might best represent that theme.

Ursines: Get A, B, and C abilities
Felines: Get F, N, and O abilities
Canines: Get D, E, and L abilities
Birds of Prey: Get X, Y, and Z abilities

Wolf: keen hearing and smell, pact tactics, bite, 40' move speed, bonus to stealth.

I.e. what is listed in the wolf stat block.

Will every Beast in the Monster Manual become a scaling template because of Wildshape?

As a DM, I would love the ability to easily scale up and down creature.

Like if I wanted CR 6 red dragon.
But there is only wyrmling (CR 4) or young (CR 10).

But you can put the scaling in the druid subclass if needed.

 

[OB1]

The template option doesn't feel right. I've seen this with Beastmaster Ranger - one of my players absolutely refused the new "beast of the whatever" option. When I asked why, given that it was way more optimal, she didn't care. She wanted the class fantasy of her character training an actual beast companion, not some magical spirit creature that could take various forms. She hated that. In effect, she wanted something like Trinket from Critical Role.

I've had the same experience with Beastmaster Rangers and some of my players. So I added a 3rd level ability called Beast Sanctuary. Can be used once per day and lasts 24 hours. When your bestial companion would drop to 0 HP, it drops to 1 instead, is magically teleported to a demi-plane and begins a long rest. It can be recalled 8 hours later, appearing in a space adjacent to you. The players love it. It let's them protect their companion, while still having a consequence if they go down.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I've had the same experience with Beastmaster Rangers and some of my players. So I added a 3rd level ability called Beast Sanctuary. Can be used once per day and lasts 24 hours. When your bestial companion would drop to 0 HP, it drops to 1 instead, is magically teleported to a demi-plane and begins a long rest. It can be recalled 8 hours later, appearing in a space adjacent to you. The players love it. It let's them protect their companion, while still having a consequence if they go down.

Is the intent of this ability to let a character have and protect a "real, living beast companion" rather than something like a "fey spirit that takes the form of a beast" that has that ability built in?

 

[OB1]

Is the intent of this ability to let a character have and protect a "real, living beast companion" rather than something like a "fey spirit that takes the form of a beast" that has that ability built in?

Exactly.