D&D 5E (2024) Moon druid math.

[UngeheuerLich]

Level 3 Life cleric gets 15 bonus healing per Channel Divinity.

So 15 THP with low AC seems right to me.

Hm... Better than 27 bonus hp. So maybe it works well enough.

 

[mellored]

2024 also makes more forms a lot more viable.

Being a crocodile for instance, still gets you 16 AC, scaling THP and damage bumps. But now you can grapple on hit.

If they added scaling to-hit, then it would almost be a template, where your mostly picking a creature's movement and attacks.

 

[Clint_L]

Although I disagree with him about using templates, I think Treantmonk effectively summarizes why the current UA version of the moon druid is bad, and why a single attack form like giant crocodile is a bad option:

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

People don't play Moon Druid to do extra radiant damage. They play it to be beefy in combat. They wanna tank with their face. Tying the Big Beefy Beast Tank subclass to the Moon theme has been a problem since the beginning, as it muddles the theme and effectiveness. Shoehorning moon and radiance stuff really takes away from the physical effectiveness wildshape enthusiasts crave. There also aren't enough Beasts at the appropriate CRs to give decent options. They would have to add so many land, aquatic, and flying beast stat blocks that actually feel different, and somehow make them balanced as monsters and wildshape options, while making them different from each other? There is no real difference between a cave bear and a polar bear. They're both bears.

Utilizing a template design that utilizes the Druid's own PB and other scaling effectiveness, and letting the druid choose bestial abilities that match a cosmetic choice is really the only way to go. They just need to give it bestial abilities to choose from.

If you are a 12th level Moon Druid and want to be effective in a fight at that level, you should still be able to be effective as a bear, wolf, panther, wolverine, hyena, elk, rhino, a hip-hop-oppotamus, owlbear, griffon, or a "dire" version of whatever beast theme works for your character. Only Template-based design lets you have it all. Stat block design is a non-starter because there just aren't enough decent stat blocks to pull it off at all the appropriate CRs.

 

[Clint_L]

People don't play Moon Druid to do extra radiant damage. They play it to be beefy in combat. They wanna tank with their face. Tying the Big Beefy Beast Tank subclass to the Moon theme has been a problem since the beginning, as it muddles the theme and effectiveness. Shoehorning moon and radiance stuff really takes away from the physical effectiveness wildshape enthusiasts crave. There also aren't enough Beasts at the appropriate CRs to give decent options. They would have to add so many land, aquatic, and flying beast stat blocks that actually feel different, and somehow make them balanced as monsters and wildshape options, while making them different from each other? There is no real difference between a cave bear and a polar bear. They're both bears.

More or less agreed.

Utilizing a template design that utilizes the Druid's own PB and other scaling effectiveness, and letting the druid choose bestial abilities that match a cosmetic choice is really the only way to go. They just need to give it bestial abilities to choose from.

Could not disagree more, and this option got shouted down hard by players.

The template option doesn't feel right. I've seen this with Beastmaster Ranger - one of my players absolutely refused the new "beast of the whatever" option. When I asked why, given that it was way more optimal, she didn't care. She wanted the class fantasy of her character training an actual beast companion, not some magical spirit creature that could take various forms. She hated that. In effect, she wanted something like Trinket from Critical Role.

Our current moon druid player similarly hates the template idea. With a passion. For a substantial number of moon druids fans, it just isn't the class fantasy. The answer is to come up with beast forms that scale better, and include beast-like monstrosities, such as owlbears (or just call creatures like that "beasts" in the new MM, which is probably the most sensible option).

If you are a 12th level Moon Druid and want to be effective in a fight at that level, you should still be able to be effective as a bear, wolf, panther, wolverine, hyena, elk, rhino, a hip-hop-oppotamus, owlbear, griffon, or a "dire" version of whatever beast theme works for your character. Only Template-based design lets you have it all. Stat block design is a non-starter because there just aren't enough decent stat blocks to pull it off at all the appropriate CRs.

I think a lot of the arguments around templates are based on optimization, which is missing the point entirely. Class fantasy always comes first. Stat block design is happening (and has been used for 10 years), so it's obviously not a non-starter. Templates actually are a non-starter: they were unequivocally rejected. They ain't happening. It's not even worth arguing about, because it's going nowhere.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I ignore the "adventuring day" guideline as I think it's meaningless; there is absolutely no consistency in how games are actually played. What matters is how classes compare to each other.

And what matters is how they compare to each other in a variety of situations. Which includes different encounter and rest models. The moon druid breaks what the DMG says the default should be - and is certainly used.

And I strongly disagree that "overcoats of temp hit points" (which is an oversimplified way to describe wild shape) are an inherent problem. To the contrary, I think they offer a different approach to tanking that is tactically interesting. The current 2024 proposal basically just tries to turn the moon druid into a fighter by giving an actual temp HP adjustment and buff to AC. It's boring.

It's more interesting in play than the 2014 Moon Druid and their ability to suffer zero long term consequences by taking all the damage on the overcoat of temp hp.

"You take no long term consequences" is simply the most boring option possible - and the moon druid is the walking embodiment of that. The 2024 proposal might be less distinctive - but it doesn't single handedly destroy tension and break the PHB guidance.

If you say the template druid is non-viable (even for moon) and we know the 2014 druid breaks the default giluidance leading to a horrible experience for some DMs and some playstyles then the 2024 trial is the best option on the table - with eliminating the moon druid entirely coming in second.

And I am going to hard ban the 2014 moob druid as soon as the new PHB is out, joining only the Twilight Cleric and Chronurgy Wizard.

Soaking: using HP like a sponge. This is the current model for low level moon druids: low AC, high HP. Again, passive.

Nope. The 2014 moon druid does not soak damage. The barbarian soaks damage (I know you call that resistance). The moon druid would have to take damage to soak it. Instead it wanders around with a de-facto force-field no-selling damage. "Damage" on the animal form simply isn't damage at all because there are literally no consequences. And that is what needs to be changed.

A druid that soaked damage in animal form would be one that converted their daily spell slots to hp, leading to actually taking part in attrition in the way others do, not pulling out 70 new temp hit points every short rest.

I think we are paying too much attention to them being OP for a few low levels; that's not the main problem,

No. The main problem is how they make running the game with the recommended (or indeed any slow) pacing non-viable at the levels that are most likely to harm new DMs. This is why if we can't find an acceptable version they should be removed from the game entirely.

The next biggest problem is the ridiculous overcoat of temp hp. The tough balance curve is a mere footnote in their list of problems.

And I also don't like the current approach, which seems to be to use wild shape to turn them into kinda sorta fighters.

But you won't accept templates and the overcoat of temp hp is truly, gamebreakingly awful at the biggest weakness of 5e - new DMs trying to learn to DM and not getting their game and intended pacing destroyed.

The new version is an attempt at a compromise to keep at least some aspect of what you want. As far as I'm concerned the main problem with the template version is that it was either half-assed or outright sabotaged by someone who wanted to make sure templates didn't happen so produced a crummy version. (See also: brawler fighter for a cool concept so badly implemented it may as well have been sabotage)

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

More or less agreed.

Could not disagree more, and this option got shouted down hard by players.

The template option doesn't feel right. I've seen this with Beastmaster Ranger - one of my players absolutely refused the new "beast of the whatever" option. When I asked why, given that it was way more optimal, she didn't care. She wanted the class fantasy of her character training an actual beast companion, not some magical spirit creature that could take various forms. She hated that. In effect, she wanted something like Trinket from Critical Role.

Our current moon druid player similarly hates the template idea. With a passion. For a substantial number of moon druids fans, it just isn't the class fantasy. The answer is to come up with beast forms that scale better, and include beast-like monstrosities, such as owlbears (or just call creatures like that "beasts" in the new MM, which is probably the most sensible option).



I think a lot of the arguments around templates are based on optimization, which is missing the point entirely. Class fantasy always comes first. Stat block design is happening (and has been used for 10 years), so it's obviously not a non-starter. Templates actually are a non-starter: they were unequivocally rejected. They ain't happening. It's not even worth arguing about, because it's going nowhere.

It's not about optimization. It's about enabling the class fantasy... which is playing the beast you want to play and not sucking because of it. The current design doesn't fulfill any of that. At all. A Moon Druid who prefers a wolf form cannot fight as a wolf at mid to high levels. The stat blocks to support that fantasy don't exist. The UA8 rules recognize that players shouldn't have access to the MM stat blocks (unless the DM wants that headache), by limiting the class to the stat blocks in an appendix. There isn't enough space in the PH to cover 20 levels of Moon Druid forms in an appendix. For it to work, the books would have to offer multiple stat blocks to cover CR 1-6 (20th Druid level divided by 3 is CR6) for every beast, that allow the Moon Druid to scale their basic effectiveness as they gain levels. There are too many beasts in our world, let alone a fantasy world, to have unique stat blocks for all of them. That is too much design space for 1 subclass.

Want to wildshape into a panther or a wolf for a level 12 fight? You'll just suck to death. If wildshaping into a form you prefer is just going to get you killed, what decent combat options are available for you to turn into? Don't want to be a dinosaur, or one of like a handful of options at higher levels? Too bad. (That is terrible design.)

Also, the Moon Druid is just one subclass on top of a full caster progression class, so it can't be too powerful compared to the other subclasses. Also, Monster Manual stat blocks should NOT be player stat blocks. They serve different purposes. The monster stat blocks need to be robust enough to challenge a group of players (they will likely be buffed in 2024), but those may be too powerful for a player to use.

As for the argument against templates, a stat block is a stat block. It gives you stats, no matter what the title or name is. The most important thing is that it works. You imagination fills in the rest. You did mention scaling stat blocks. Monster stat blocks that scale are just even more limited templates. People who are against templates would also be against scaling beast templates.

I'm really curious how these non-template Moon Druid players think this is going to work in an actual play. I really want to see someone show me a Moon Druid design progression that will actually work, without using a template. The design has to cover any beast to fulfill the form fantasy, and CRs 1-6 to fulfill basic effectiveness at each of these levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18). And it has to be balanced against other subclasses. The 2014 Moon Druid fails due to power. Ablative hit points are a non-starter.

Treantmonk is right in this case, and it has nothing to do with optimization. Merely basic effectiveness.

 

[mellored]

Although I disagree with him about using templates, I think Treantmonk effectively summarizes why the current UA version of the moon druid is bad, and why a single attack form like giant crocodile is a bad option:

He mostly talks about the attack bonus. Which i agree could be an issue.

I can see how the spell DC would be lowered with the current wording. But I expect that's not Intentional.

For multi-attack, the 2 thing that add per-hit would be a buff (font of moonlight) and the 14th level feature. If your focusing on damage then yea, you want multi-attack.

If your focusing on tankiness, the your running something like Barkskin or Vamperic Touch, which doesn't care about multi-attack.

Meaning your down a 1d10 at level 14+. That's something, but not everything.

 

[mellored]

There isn't enough space in the PH to cover 20 levels of Moon Druid forms in an appendix. For it to work, the books would have to offer multiple stat blocks to cover CR 1-6 (20th Druid level divided by 3 is CR6) for every beast, that allow the Moon Druid to scale their basic effectiveness as they gain levels.
Want to wildshape into a panther or a wolf for a level 12 fight? You'll just suck to death.

or, you scale the wolf's numbers based on Druid level.

Like their AC, THP, saving throws, bonus damage...
If they added in the to-hit and possibly their trip DC.

Almost like a template...

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

or, you scale the wolf's numbers based on Druid level.

Like their AC, THP, saving throws, bonus damage...
If they added in the to-hit and possibly their trip DC.

Almost like a template...

That is a wolf template. A very narrow template.