D&D (2024) Moon druid math.

[UngeheuerLich]

One final point: nothing happens in a vacuum, and these nerfs to moon druid tanking are happening when other classes are getting their ability to tank buffed. In that same 1v1, a level 3 2024 monk pulverizes the knight and is not even scratched. And that's without spending a single di point (the knight averages 10 DPR; the monk can absorb 11.5 DPR as a reaction).

Nothing is set in stone yet.
The old wildshape replace hp really has to go. I don't think the monk goes through unnerfed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So even factoring in healing, the 2014 moon druid is better as a pure tank at this level against this opponent. Although buffing AC definitely improves survivability, the HP loss is so extreme that the buffed AC doesn't compensate for it.

An it does not have to. If it did, the change would make not a lot of sense.

 

[mellored]

Perhaps I aim misunderstanding your first example, but shouldn't the druid be using their wild shape twice, giving them 68 HP as a bear?

Yes. And double the THP.
my mistake

And how is a level 3 druid at 27 HP? With standard array, assuming +1 con, they should be at 19 HP.

Point buy. 15+2 Wis, 15+1 Con, 14 Dex
You can get 16/16 with standard array too.
As Dex doesn't matter in beast form, i would make it third.

Maybe 17 Con/16 Wis with resilience Con.

So by my reckoning, the 2014 druid would have AC 11, 87 HP (effective), and the 2024 would have AC 16, 28 HP (effective). Healing is complicated to factor in; the 2014 version can do it as a bonus action, which is a definite advantage, but the 2024 version would get the more powerful heals, at the cost of their action.

At level 5, 2024 can convert a slot to a wild shape for free, and bonus action to get THP.

One final point: nothing happens in a vacuum, and these nerfs to moon druid tanking are happening when other classes are getting their ability to tank buffed.

True.

I should compare it to a playtest fighter, not the most OP level 3 option from 2014.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So you get to be a bear for 60% longer.
But you have to heal between fights.

As mentioned there are two wildshapes. But the real issue with the moon druid is the no-selling where taking out the temp hp doesn't actually do anything except take out the temp hp. The new one seems fine (and the better AC helps) but the old one has got to go.

 

[Clint_L]

I'm also questioning just how "OP" the 2014 version will be at low levels once the 2024 update happens:

1. They choose their circle at level 3, not 2.
2. Other tanking classes have received significant improvements. I've been running some more math (in my head, so that's suspect, but it helps me get to sleep and no I'm not kidding), and new barbarian, fighter, and paladin all do fairly well against that same CR 3 knight, and 2024 monk barely breaks a sweat. 2014 druid is still strong, but it's not even the best bet in that fight.

And yes, I know things can change, but all we can do is compare what is on the table right now.

To be honest, I think the biggest problem with 2014 moon druid isn't that it is too strong for a few levels, it's that it's too weak for a lot of levels because it scales terribly and the game has too few viable wild shape options past CR1.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The hardest part to compare will be the question of "Does the 2024 version (whatever that winds up being) FEEL more like you're an awesome Beast doing some butt-kicking without stepping on anyone else's toes better than the 2014 version".

 

[mellored]

Fixing the math.

Level 3, brown bear vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Vs 2014
11 AC = Hit 75% of the time
68 hp / 15 = 4.5 rounds of THP/bear form.
+18 AC, 40%
27/8 = 3.4 as druid
= 8 rounds (no spells)
+36 healing (in bear form) / 15 = 2.4
= 10.4 rounds total.

Vs 2024
16 AC = hits 50% of the time
18THP / 10 = 1.8 rounds of THP.
+27 HP / 10 = 4.5 rounds (no spells)
+90 healing / 10 = 9
= 13.5 total

2014 is worse without spells, 2024 is better with spells. Boosted Cure Wounds for the win.

Vs fighter (sword and board)
19 AC = hits 35%
31 + (8.5*2) = 48
/ 7 = 6.8 rounds

Fighter (2-hander)
17 AC, 45%
48 / 9 = 5.3 rounds

And both easily stay alive longer than a fighter. I didn't give the fighter a subclass, but most add offensive.

 

[mellored]

I'm also questioning just how "OP" the 2014 version will be at low levels once the 2024 update happens:

Go ahead and find another class that can compete on tankiness.
While doing 2d6+ 4 + 2d6 + 4 + 1d8 + 4
And still have spiked growth and goodberry.

1. They choose their circle at level 3, not 2.

Still OP, and at level 4.
At level 5, other classes start to catch up.

I do wonder how much is just the brown bear. Like, if you went Giant Spider.

2. Other tanking classes have received significant improvements. I've been running some more math (in my head, so that's suspect, but it helps me get to sleep and no I'm not kidding), and new barbarian, fighter, and paladin all do fairly well against that same CR 3 knight, and 2024 monk barely breaks a sweat. 2014 druid is still strong, but it's not even the best bet in that fight.

There are a lot of tactical stuff, Fighter knocking someone prone works great for the bear to maul, or pushing into your spiked growth.

But unless your running Sap, I don't see much defense boost.

To be honest, I think the biggest problem with 2014 moon druid isn't that it is too strong for a few levels, it's that it's too weak for a lot of levels because it scales terribly and the game has too few viable wild shape options past CR1.

2024 scales a lot better. Scaling THP, improving AC, bonus damage all based on Druid level instead of CR.

Lack of monster variety hopefully gets fixed.

 

[Clint_L]

Go ahead and find another class that can compete on tankiness.
While doing 2d6+ 4 + 2d6 + 4 + 1d8 + 4
And still have spiked growth and goodberry.

A bear makes two attacks, not three (1 claw, 1 bite). And your 2024 druid is not particularly "tanky" unless they stand there and spend all their spell slots on healing (in your example, you have them casting cure wounds, which is using up all their actions for 6 rounds). A cleric could do that with fewer HP to start but a higher AC. A holy cleric in heavy armour and shield, for example, would be more durable than your druid in this example. Are they OP, too?

Bottom line: 9 temporary HP and 16 AC is not that great.

2024 monk easily beats that: AC 16 and eliminates basically 1 hit per round through deflect attack, while doing 1d8+3+1d6+3. If they need to, they can force all attacks to be at disadvantage while still attacking (and doing FoB if they want) through the bonus attack.

For example, against your knight the monk comes out far ahead of the 2024 druid. Because the monk actually kills the knight while taking almost no damage.

Still OP, and at level 4.
At level 5, other classes start to catch up.

It's really not, when you start doing the math with other classes. For standing there and taking a beating it's competitive, but only if it's spending all its resources on healing itself. That's not going to take it very far at level 3.

The 2014 version is way better - it is getting offence in that whole time while having better survivability. I mean, if you are just going to stand there and heal with your actions, the 2014 druid can do that too, once it's out of wild shapes. But in the meantime, it has wrecked face as a bear.

I do wonder how much is just the brown bear. Like, if you went Giant Spider.

There are a lot of tactical stuff, Fighter knocking someone prone works great for the bear to maul, or pushing into your spiked growth.

But unless your running Sap, I don't see much defense boost.

2024 scales a lot better. Scaling THP, improving AC, bonus damage all based on Druid level instead of CR.

Lack of monster variety hopefully gets fixed.

2024 does scale a bit better but the current proposal still sucks. For example, one way it scales is by giving the druid a bonus to damage from each attack...but all higher CR forms only have one attack.

 

[mellored]

Level 10

2014 Earth elemental vs Deva
17 AC vs +8 o hit, 60%
14 bludgeoning / resistance + 36 radiant = 43 * .6
126 / 25.8 = 4.8 rounds
+41d8 healing = 184.5 / 25.6 = 7.1
= 11.9 rounds elemental form
19 AC, 50% hit chance
50 *.5 = 25
83 / 25 = 3.3 rounds as druid
= 15.22 total


2024 brown bear vs Deva, converting all slots to wild shape
18 AC, 60%
90 THP / 50 = 1.8 rounds THP
15 slots * 30 THP = 450
450 / 50 = 9
= 10.8 rounds total

* not that either one using their slots this way is efficient.