D&D (2024) Moon druid math.

[Gorck]

Could not disagree more, and this option got shouted down hard by players.
...
For a substantial number of moon druids fans, it just isn't the class fantasy.
...
Templates actually are a non-starter: they were unequivocally rejected.

I keep hearing people say that the templates were completely panned in the playtest, but do we know this for a fact? Obviously they didn’t pass the 70% threshold since they didn’t survive into the next UA. But, for all we know, they could have just barely missed with 69.9% (which would be more than 2/3 in favor). Have we seen or heard any concrete numbers for how they were received by “a substantial number of moon Druid fans?”

I wish WOTC had conducted a simple poll: would you rather have Wild Shape use monster stat blocks or templates? That way they could have seen which style the players preferred before putting a subpar version in the UA.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I keep hearing people say that the templates were completely panned in the playtest, but do we know this for a fact? Obviously they didn’t pass the 70% threshold since they didn’t survive into the next UA. But, for all we know, they could have just barely missed with 69.9% (which would be more than 2/3 in favor). Have we seen or heard any concrete numbers for how they were received by “a substantial number of moon Druid fans?”

And to reiterate I'm both a template fan and a brawler fighter fan. But the offering was so half-baked for both that I voted them both down. We don't know whether the template as a concept was the problem or whether the implementation was just that bad.

 

[mellored]

That is a wolf template. A very narrow template.

Having access to every creature in evey book at any moment was too much versatility, as well as slowing the game down.
Even if they went with templates, it would still need to be a limited number of options.

I keep hearing people say that the templates were completely panned in the playtest, but do we know this for a fact?

they said it was split, but the majority wanted animals.
So probably something like 40% templates, 60% animals.

Now we have a 60% animal, 40% template.
Taken together...



Wolf
AC: 13+Wis
HP: keep yours + 3x druid level THP
Speed: 40

Str (12) Dex(15) Con(12) Wis (druids) Int (druids) Cha (druids)

Skills Druids, Stealth +4 (minimum)

Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
Pack Tactics. The wolf has advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of the wolf's allies is within 5 ft. of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated.
Limited Spell Casting: you can cast...

Actions

---

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
At druid level 7, increase by 1d8
At druid level 14, increase by another 1d10
At druid level 15, increase by another 1d8

Moonlight Step (level 10), you can teleport as a bonus action...
Level 14, you can take a willing creature with you when you teleport.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Having access to every creature in evey book at any moment was too much versatility, as well as slowing the game down.
Even if they went with templates, it would still need to be a limited number of options.

they said it was split, but the majority wanted animals.
So probably something like 40% templates, 60% animals.

Now we have a 60% animal, 40% template.
Taken together...

[template redacted]

But that still doesn't work, logistics-wise. You would need an entire book to create a unique wildshape statblock template for every beast, and every time a new beast statblock was published, it would need another wildshape template as well (maybe even monstrosity statblocks if they don't update owlbears and other chimeric beasts). Every 3rd party publisher would have to do the same to support this one subclass.

Template design would be great as long as druids could choose from a list of Special Bestial Abilities similar to how warlocks get to choose from Invocations and Battle Master fighters can choose from a list of maneuvers. I know people say the only thing that matters is that the stat block has the animal name, but being able to pick and choose your special abilities has got to be enticing. Who doesn't want their Sabretooth Tiger form to get Pouncing Attack, Stealth Expertise, and also be able to make a Grappling Strike, Rampage, or be able to make a Standing Leap? Heck, you can even make the form more chimeric by choosing non-traditional options, like tentacles to make something that looks like a displacer beast. This would better allow the Druid player to recreate how they want their form to work.

Shape of the Wild Beast

• Creature Type: Beast (Chimeric creatures without supernatural powers, like Owlbears and Two-Headed Snakes would also be Beasts.)
• Size: Small, Medium, or Large (Huge unlocks at Nth level and increases reach by 5ft.)
• Armor Class: 13 + your Wisdom modifier
• Hit Points: You continue to use your Hit Points and Hit Dice (You also get THP equal to your Druid Level, or 3x Moon Druid Level)
• Speed: 40 ft., also choose between Climb 40 ft., Swim 40 ft., or upgrade Speed to 50 ft. (At Nth level, can choose Fly 50 ft. instead)
• STR, DEX equal your Wisdom score
• CON, INT, WIS, CHA use your scores
• Senses Darkvision 60 ft.
• Languages: The languages you know. You can speak in Wildshape form.
• Proficiency Bonus: Equals your Proficiency Bonus.
• Keen Senses. You have Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
• Special Bestial Abilities: (Pick 2 from the list below. Moon Druids can choose 3 abilities.)

ACTIONS

• Bestial Strike. Melee Attack: your Spell Attack Modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. (If one is also allowed to choose an additional effect like Grapple, Trip, Push, or Pull, that would cover a lot of combat tech.)
• Multiattack (Requires 5th+ Level). You make two Bestial Strike attacks.
• (Druid can also use an Unarmed Strike in place of Bestial Strike if they want to grapple, push, or trip an enemy.)

SPECIAL BESTIAL ABILITIES: (When you Wildshape, pick 2 from the list below. Moon Druids can choose 3.)

• Amphibious (Can breath air and water)
• Anthropomorphic Form (Prereq: Moon Druid. Can use weapons and tools)
• Blindsight
• Blood Frenzy (Prereq: Aquatic Form)
• Dive Attack (Prereq: Flying Speed)
• Flyby Attack (Prereq: Flying Speed)
• Grappling Strike (deal damage and grapple)
• Hold Breath (Is it necessary to have this with Amphibious as an option?)
• Pack Tactics
• Poisonous Hide (Touching the hide forces a Con Save or get the Poisoned condition for 1 minute, save every round.)
• Poisonous Strike (Venomous Bites and Poisonous Stings)
• Pouncing Attack (Single target rushing attack that knocks prone if it hits. If you knock prone, you can get a second attack as a bonus action.)
• Rampage (If you reduce a foe to 0, move 20 feet and use Bestial Strike against another target as a bonus action
• Relentless (If you take damage equal to your Druid level or less that would reduce it to 0, reduce your HP to 1 instead.
• Standing Leap (Can add 20 feet to jumping distance and 10 feet to jumping height with or without a running start.)
• Stealth Expertise (You get proficiency and expertise with Stealth)
• Survival Expertise (You get proficiency and expertise with Survival)
• Swallow Foe (Can swallow an enemy that is at least 1 size smaller than your form.)
• Tail Strike (Prereq: Large or Huge Form. a 10-ft. reach strike that knocks prone)
• Tentacle Strike (Can use Bestial Strike with 15-ft reach using a tentacle that can also grapple.)
• Tough Hide (AC is 15+ Wisdom modifier)
• Trampling Charge (Prereq: Large or Huge Form. Move your walking speed in a straight line, force a Str Save for those in your patch, failure takes damage and is knocked prone)
• Tremorsense
• Web Spray (Ranged restraining attack like that of Giant Spiders and Cave Fishers)
• Web Walker (You get Spider Climb, Web Sense, Web Walker)

 

[Neonchameleon]

For the record that's pretty much what I came up with at about the time with a couple of modifications:

• You get an attack upgrade option (something like a multiattack, bite, poison sting, grapple) at level 5
• You get a defensive option (which includes things like Prof to AC, Resist damage types (B was one for bulky, P/S was a second, various elementals), immunity to opportunity attacks, and more)
• You get your first utility option at L3 and your second at L8.

 

[mellored]

But that still doesn't work, logistics-wise. You would need an entire book to create a unique wildshape statblock template for every beast,

I just used the playtest rules, reformated into a block.

I.e. use a monster block, but replace half the numbers.

choose from a list of Special Bestial Abilities similar to how warlocks get to choose from Invocations and Battle Master fighters can choose from a list of maneuvers.

I played with the idea earlier, and came to the following conclusions.

1: it doesn't feel like turning into an animal. It feels like turning into a mutant.

2: it's too much to add to a full caster. It would be nearly a class on it's own.

3: would make a great barbarian subclass. Rage turning you into a monstrosity is very fitting, most of the scaling happens in the base class, and barbs could use a more complex option.

4: possibly it's own class. With Draconic, Deamon, Beast, and Fey subclasses. Pretty sure there was a 3e class that did similar, but I can't remember the name of it.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I played with the idea earlier, and came to the following conclusions.

1: it doesn't feel like turning into an animal. It feels like turning into a mutant.

2: it's too much to add to a full caster. It would be nearly a class on it's own.

1. That's subjective, but that is all in the mind. As long as it is written in a way that supports the fantasy, it shouldn't be a problem.

2. Enthusiasts of Advanced Wildshape (only available from the Moon Druid subclass) want a fully functional, tough, capable, melee combatant that can fulfill the fantasy of ANY beast in the game. That is tricky to do with a class that already gets so much full caster functionality. I honestly don't know if there is a way to balance that.

Because we all can already reskin anything into what we want, all a Wildshape subsystem really needs to do is at least allow the Druid to turn into a beastform they prefer that works like that beastform, and every rule for that class and subclass needs to fit in the space of that class and subclass, including the forms themselves. If it can't fit completely in the PH, it can't work. A player class should never require looking at any other book. It needs to be self contained in the PH. It needs to work for new players who only have the PH.

I played the 2014 moon druid and it was broken because of the ablative hit points. It also didn't allow me to be a beast I wanted to be. I had to select undesired forms just to be functional. The druid should not have to turn into a dinosaur or mammoth to be useful at high levels. For 3 of my druid concepts, I am only interested in a small number of beasts, and I want to be capable at those forms at every CR. The game needs to do that without flooding other books with 6 different stat blocks for each beast I want to focus on.

I played the most recent UA moon druid at high level, and:

1. I could not fulfill the fantasy of wildshaping into a preferred beast I wanted to embody. I had to pick something else to feel functional. There just wasn't a good variety of choices to fulfill my preferred theme.
2. The different monster stat blocks available were not balanced to the level of the adventure, or against each other. There was wasn't a good variety of options for effectiveness because they are balanced to Monster CR, not player effectiveness.
3. This boils down to that fact that it could not fulfill most of my different druid fantasies.

The druid concept has the same problems as the psion concept. It means too many different things to too many different crowds, and it can't make everyone happy. The additional problem with the druid is that they already exist in a broken format, and the designers have the unfortunate responsibility of fixing it while also making druid fans happy. I will give them a well-deserved slow clap if they figure it out.

 

[mellored]

1. That's subjective, but that is all in the mind. As long as it is written in a way that supports the fantasy, it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure what beast you think of when you take flying and tentacles, but doesn't sound like anything natural i know of.

Enthusiasts of Advanced Wildshape (only available from the Moon Druid subclass) want a fully functional, tough, capable, melee combatant that can fulfill the fantasy of ANY beast in the game. That is tricky to do with a class that already gets so much full caster functionality. I honestly don't know if there is a way to balance that.

Agreed. Sword mage and valor bard are far less complicated. Which is why I think it would work best elsewhere.

Barbarian who turns into a flying tentacle creature sounds a lot more appealing IMO. There is a lot more room there.

allow the Druid to turn into a beastform they prefer that works like that beastform,

One way to work like a wolf is to use the wolf stat block.

I played the 2014 moon druid and it was broken because of the ablative hit points. It also didn't allow me to be a beast I wanted to be. I had to select undesired forms just to be functional. The druid should not have to turn into a dinosaur or mammoth to be useful at high levels.

Agreed. Really glad to see elemental form go.

For 3 of my druid concepts, I am only interested in a small number of beasts, and I want to be capable at those forms at every CR. The game needs to do that without flooding other books with 6 different stat blocks for each beast I want to focus on.

Agree that the game needs to scale the numbers (Including to-hit). But not necessarily "CR

A CR 1 wolf with +5 to everything would be on par with a CR 6 creatures.
Just look at brown bear -> polar bear. Straight number upgrade.

I'll do some math to compare a scales wolf to a mammoth.

I could not fulfill the fantasy of wildshaping into a preferred beast I wanted to embody. I had to pick something else to feel functional.

Was it because of the attack bonus?

The different monster stat blocks available were not balanced

IMO, this is the biggest issue of moon druid. The brown bear in particular.

They did mention expanding the beast. I assume rebalancing will also happen.

DESIGN NOTE: WILD SHAPE FORMS The creature statistics section of the 2024 Player’s Handbook will include more Beast options than the 2014 book contains.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I'm not sure what beast you think of when you take flying and tentacles, but doesn't sound like anything natural i know of.

The list of options are just pulled from existing beasts, to they can be used to recreate beasts. The tentacles exist to recreate the Octopus, or Giant Squid, or any other nonmagical fantasy beast that you want to have tentacles. You don't have to give your Sabre-tooth tiger tentacles.

One way to work like a wolf is to use the wolf stat block.

How do I play a wolf at high levels without a template?

Agree that the game needs to scale the numbers (Including to-hit). But not necessarily "CR

A CR 1 wolf with +5 to everything would be on par with a CR 6 creatures.
Just look at brown bear -> polar bear. Straight number upgrade.

I'll do some math to compare a scales wolf to a mammoth.

Was it because of the attack bonus?

IMO, this is the biggest issue of moon druid. The brown bear in particular.

They did mention expanding the beast. I assume rebalancing will also happen.

DESIGN NOTE: WILD SHAPE FORMS The creature statistics section of the 2024 Player’s Handbook will include more Beast options than the 2014 book contains.

Scaling is a template. Scaling monster stat blocks have to be universal for all monsters if it exists at all, but I doubt the designers will go that route. You can't limit scaling in the Monster Manual to only to beasts for wildshape purposes.

The other part of scaling is that not all beasts start at the same CR/level. A CR 1 wolf with +5 to their base stats because the Druid is level 18 is not as powerful as a CR 6 Ancient Dire Wolf whose higher base stats are also increased by +5 because the Druid is level 18.

It would feel weird if your Druid level affected the wildshape less if the base form started at CR6, but that is how it would have to work for the two beasts to be comparable at high levels.

 

[Gorck]

Here's how I adapted the Animal of the Land template from UA4 (my changes are in red):

ANIMAL OF THE LAND
An Animal of the Land is a flightless terrestrial
animal, such as a bear, deer, horse, cat, dog,
velociraptor, or big rodent. While in this form,
you use the Animal of the Land stat block,
choosing whether you are a Defender, Lurker,
or Striker.

ANIMAL OF THE LAND
Small, Medium, or Large Terrestrial Animal (Your
Creature Type Doesn’t Change)
Armor Class 10 + your Wisdom modifier or 13 + your
Wisdom modifier (Defender only)
Hit Points you continue to use your Hit Points and
Hit Dice + your Constitution score (Defender only).
Speed 40 ft., Climb 40 ft. (requires 5th+ level)
STR, DEX equal your Wisdom score
CON, INT, WIS, CHA use your scores
Senses Darkvision 60 ft.
Languages the languages you know
Proficiency Bonus equals your Proficiency Bonus
Keen Senses. You have Advantage on Wisdom
(Perception) checks.
Silent Stalker. You have Advantage on Dexterity
(Stealth) checks (Lurker only).
Pounce. When you attack a creature that has
yet to take its Action, your damage against it increases
by 1d6 for every 2 Druid levels you have. (Lurker or
Striker only).
ACTIONS
Bestial Strike. Melee Attack: your Spell Attack Modifier
to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1d8 + your Wisdom
modifier Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage.
Predatory Strike. Melee Attack: your Spell Attack Modifier
to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 2d6 + your Wisdom
modifier Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage.
(Striker only).
Multiattack (Requires 5th+ Level). You make two Bestial Strike attacks or two Predatory Strike attacks.