Moorcock blasts Tolkien

[Raven Crowking]

I am guessing that Bill Ferny would fit the bill. I recall him being described as "swarthy". Don't recall what colour the Mouth of Sauron was, though - sorry.

Sorry, but I don't buy that "swarthy" and "non-white" mean the same thing. Also, I believe it was Bill Ferny's friend from the Prancing Pony who was described as "swarthy"....and it is strongly implied in LotR that he is not human.


EDIT: I should probably elaborate on the above. "Swarthy" means having a naturally dark skin color, but it doesn't mean that one must have a naturally dark skin color to a specific degree, nor does it mean that one must be non-white. In the REH stories, for example, the term "swarthy" is often used to describe races that Howard considers "white" (such as the Picts). Bill Ferny's friend, it is implied, is an orc/human crossbreed that can pass as human (the original AD&D 1e half-orc) and was probably of the same human stock as the people Saruman duped into attacking the Rohirrim.

Tolkien makes sure to tell us, repeatedly, that the people attacking Rohan and Gondor are not evil, but have been told repeatedly that Rohan and Gondor were evil. If this is not the story of our time -- each side using claims that the other is evil to motivate their people and excuse their actions -- it was certainly the story of JRRT's time.

OTOH, we know as a fact that the "good" white humans hunted other humans (the woses) for sport. We know that the Rohirrim were fierce and proud, and punished trespassers on their fields soundly. We know that not all hobbits were good -- some were in league with Saruman (knowingly or not) long before Frodo set foot in the Old Forest.

No matter what the movies say, the elves did not aid in the defense of Helm's Deep, nor did the dwarves. All the "good people" did not pull together against a common foe. The LotR is simply more complex than that.

RC

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The Haradrim are clearly portrayed as evil.

 

[Mark Hope]

Sorry, but I don't buy that "swarthy" and "non-white" mean the same thing. Also, I believe it was Bill Ferny's friend from the Prancing Pony who was described as "swarthy"....and it is strongly implied in LotR that he is not human.

RC

Well, swarthy means of dark colour or complexion, so it does mean non-white by default. But you might be right about it being Ferny's friend - my copy of LotR is at the back of a room filled with boxes right so I can't check. Either way, I'm not convinced about the racist element myself - just trying to remember non-white humans.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The Haradrim are clearly portrayed as evil.

Are they? Please quote.

Well, swarthy means of dark colour or complexion, so it does mean non-white by default. But you might be right about it being Ferny's friend - my copy of LotR is at the back of a room filled with boxes right so I can't check. Either way, I'm not convinced about the racist element myself - just trying to remember non-white humans.

Please read my edit of previous post.

 

[dcas]

Sorry, but I don't buy that "swarthy" and "non-white" mean the same thing. Also, I believe it was Bill Ferny's friend from the Prancing Pony who was described as "swarthy"....and it is strongly implied in LotR that he is not human.

No, Bill Ferny is a "swarthy sneering fellow." His "friend" is described as being "squint-eyed" and "sallow" but "sallow" means pale, sickly yellow, not "yellow" as in the stereotype of Asians.

I should add (though this is a bit of a tangent) that the fact that the half-orcs (those that pass for human, that is) are sallow implies that orcs are not uniformly dark-skinned as they are portrayed in the movies.

 

[dcas]

I am guessing that Bill Ferny would fit the bill. I recall him being described as "swarthy". Don't recall what colour the Mouth of Sauron was, though - sorry.

The Mouth of Sauron is said to be from the "Black Numenoreans" (oops, there's that word "black" again! ), so he would likely have been pale-skinned. But he is not described as such.

It's also worth pointing out that most characters are not specifically described as being pale. IIRC, when the hobbits first meet Aragorn he is described as "dark."

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, Bill Ferny is a "swarthy sneering fellow." His "friend" is described as being "squint-eyed" and "sallow" but "sallow" means pale, sickly yellow, not "yellow" as in the stereotype of Asians.

Nice catch. Thank you.

In the case of Bill Ferny, then, we are looking at a native of Bree. It would seem odd that a native of (presumably white European) Bree would turn out to be non-white, unless there is more travel in the Wilds of those days than either The Hobbit or LotR implies.

(Presumably the friend is sallow then due to his orcish blood, and therefore possible discomfort in sunlight?)

 

[Mark Hope]

Please read my edit of previous post.

Good points across the board. We can't really know quite how Tolkien meant to use "swarthy", I suppose, but good points nevertheless.

 

[fusangite]

Wormtongue is an example of a white human character in LotR that I would say is pretty specifically evil.

Okay. Time #4:

Nobody is stating that all the bad guys are non-white. What I am stating is that 100% of the non-whites are bad guys.​

Please give me one example of a non-white human character in LotR that is Tolkien says is evil. I need something to work with here.

Fine. Here goes.

One of the travellers, a squint-eyed ill-favoured fellow, was foreteling that more and more people would be coming north in the near future. "If room isn't found for them, they'll find it for themselves. People have a right to live, same ask other folk," he said loudly...

But there was one swarthy Breelander who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner: the two had been whispering together a good deal during the evening...

The southern travellers had lost several horses and blamed the innkeeper loudly, until it became known that one of their own number had also disappeared in the night, none other than Bill Ferny's squint-eyed companion. Suspicion fell on him at once.

Now, while I'm at it...

"More Men going to Mordor," he said in a low voice. "Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Smeagol has not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears; yes, lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks; and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shield, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs, and much bigger. Smeagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end: they came up that road. They have passed on to the Black Gate; but more may follow. Always more people coming to Mordor. One day all the peoples will be inside."

"Aye, curse the Southrons!" said Damrod. "'Tis said that there were dealings of old between Gondor and the kingdoms of harad in the Far South; though there was never friendship. In those days our bounds were away south beyond the mouths of Anduin, and Umbar, the nearest of their realms, acknowledged our sway. But that is long since. 'Tis many lives of Men since any passed to or fro between us. Now of late we have learned that the Enemy has been among them, and they are gone over to him, or back to Him -- they were ever ready to His will -- as have so many also in the East...

"They are coming!" cried Damrod. "See! Some fo the Southrons have broken from the trap and are flying from the road There they go..."

For a moment he caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slops some way off with green-clad warriors leaping after them, hewing them down as they fled... Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them... His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

Southward beyond the road lay the main for of the Haradrim, and their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftan... Then he was filled witha a red wrath and shouted aloud, displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars...

...but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues...

The host of Orcs and Easterlings had turned back out of Anorien...

For a strong force of Orcs and Easterlings attempted to take their leading companies in an ambush; and that was in the very plac e where Faramir had waylaid the men of Harad...

But the Men of Rhun and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. But the most part fled eastward as they could; and some cast their weapons down and sued for mercy.

Satisfied?

 

[Raven Crowking]

The Mouth of Sauron is said to be from the "Black Numenoreans" (oops, there's that word "black" again! ), so he would likely have been pale-skinned. But he is not described as such.

It's also worth pointing out that most characters are not specifically described as being pale. IIRC, when the hobbits first meet Aragorn he is described as "dark."

Speaking of which, what color are Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippen?

their feet grow naturally leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the stuff on their heads (which is curly); have long clever brown fingers, good-natured faces

Clearly, if Aragorn is dark and the half-orc friend of Bill Ferny is pale, what we have is....what exactly? Interestingly enough, Gollum is described as both dark and pale....and in both cases while in his "Gollum" (as opposed to "Smeagol") persona. Perhaps a naturally dark being who has grown pale through avoiding the sun for centuries? But, as he is of much the same kind as the hobbits, that would imply that the hobbits were naturally dark....

......Or, perhaps, they were just swarthy.


RC