Moorcock blasts Tolkien

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Ulrick said:
So one could argue that Moorcock infringed on Tolkien estate intellectual property??? :eek:

No . . . while the story of Turin Turambar was written long before that of Elric!!, it wouldn't be published until 1977, long after Elric!! was in print.

I agree with Akrasia that Turin is a much more interesting character than Elric!!
 

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Raven Crowking said:
Any form of expression (artistic or otherwise) is an attempt to communicate, and can be judged on the basis of both what the creator(s) was (were) seeking to communicate and how well that goal was achieved. Both of these criteria have strong subjective elements -- one isn't wrong for liking or not liking any particular work. However, it is possible to speak about (and critique) expressive works intelligently on this basis.

(This includes, IMHO, expressive works like RPGs as well.)


RC

Critique is one thing, but what I am getting from this guy is he feels he is better and right and anyone who disagrees is inferior.
 

How unfortunate that Moorcock doesn't appreciate the popularity of literary approaches that differ from his.

It's a fair analysis, but... so what if Tolkien is comfortable, Anglican/Catholic, anti-urban, and what ever. I don't want all fantasy fiction to be Tolkien, nor do I want it to be the delayed adolescent angst that's central to Moorcock's work, nor Howard's badass Western-tinged machismo, or Leiber's urban charm, or (lamentably obscure) authors like James Branch Cabell. I just want to see talented authors following their muses and doing creative work, even if I don't always appreciate the final result.

And how, given the literary climate in which it was created, can anyone really think that an 800 page epic fairy tale for adults was "safe". From a publishing standpoint, it was a work that should have been buried in obscurity for the rest of time. Nobody, including Tolkien, thought it would have much of an audience, and even the books' champions expected it to lose money. Is that "safe"? Safe is following in the predictable patterns that everyone else writes and milking the market. Neither Tolkien, nor Lewis, nor Moorcock are "safe" in that regard.

Moorcock's invective would be better served by attacking authors who follow market trands rather than their muses, or by lauding some of the great authors that we don't give enough respect toward. But then, we wouldn't be paying much attention to him if he wasn't attacking Tolkien, would we?

I hope that somewhere. Moorcock acknowledges the debt he owes Tolkien for opening up the fantasy market in the 1960s and 70s, from which a lot of fantasists prospered. However, if he doesn't, it's no big deal.
 

Well, I don't see a problem with Moorcock critizing Tolkien, there's a lot to criticize. His opinion is as good as anyone else's.

It's not any BETTER than anyone else's either though. Just one reader's opinion.

Why people are continually mystified that writers have strong opinions about writing, and writers, is beyond me.

Chuck
 

Umbran said:

".....Additionally, this thread has no gaming content to speak of....."


OK, just to humour you:

How many gold pieces is a Melnibonean Wheel worth? I believe it was described as possessing the ability to purchase (amongst other things) ships, manor houses, a squadron of the finest horses, small castles, etc., etc.....
 

Elfdart said:
Notice how Michael Moorcock is so eager to smear those who are more successful than he is? And in such a dishonest and despicable manner? Just like David Brin, who will go down in history as the writer who gave us The Postman (if he's remembered at all)

Well, no. Brin will be remembered for his Hugo and Nebula award winning novels such as Startide Rising and The Uplift War. Just because someone has an opinion concerning pop culture doesn't mean they are a hack, and Brin is decidedly not a hack.

(And for the record, I am of the opinion that Brin's fiction is decidely superior to Lucas').
 
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pawsplay said:
That just puts him in the same moral category as various John Wayne Mel Gibson, "reluctant heroes" who are forced to show manly they are in the face of evil.
Why do you keep going on about Elric being "manly" and "macho"? God knows where you're getting this from - it really isn't reflected in the novels. Maybe you think that killing someone with a sword equates to being manly? Weird.

Elric is a guy who believes he has the duty to rule, who smacks people with a sword to establish his moral position. he is, essentially, King Arthur.
OK, you're kidding, right? Please tell me that you're joking, because this has to be one of the most ludicrous mischaracterisations of Elric that I have ever read. Now I have to ask - have you actually read the Elric series?

You seemed to have had no problem reading the rest of my post. Why don't we see if you can write, too?
Yeah, I really have no idea what you're trying to say here.

My interpretation may be unusual in the sense of "not held by the majority," but it's not a rare opinion.
No, it's unusual in the sense of "utterly ridiculous and not at all supported by the novels."

Elric is an ironic character, but as the core, is a macho badass, just like all the other macho badasses, and represents the rulership of intellect and refinement over the masses. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown," indeed.
There you go again with the macho thing. Bizarre. I really don't see where you see Elric as being identified with rulership from. He is anything but.

takyris said:
You're darn right I'm going to pull out the comfort reading. If I want to experience fatigue and grim necessity, I can put the book down.
Excellent points. There are times when I would rather wrap myself up in Middle Earth (or Pern or Fionavar or wherever) and take a time-out from the concerns of the world. There is a time for everything.

But Moorcock couldn't have gotten his stuff published without Jayarrarrtee getting his stuff published (not because Moorcock's stuff is so Tolkienesque, because it isn't, obviously, but because the fantasy market wouldn't be the two or three shelves at Chapters that it is without Tolkien). You don't have to like the giant whose shoulders you're standing on, but yelling about how he should have been taller makes you look kind of petulant.
Not so sure I agree with this. Moorcock was getting himself published by age 17 (and not in the fantasy field), which was only a year or two after LotR had been released - and well before it gained any kind of widespread popularity or recognition. He wrote the Elric stuff more on the back of Howard and Burroughs, afaik - there was a market for the genre before the Prof, strange as it may seem today. And LotR didn't hit the big time until the pirated copies were released in the USA in the early to mid 1960s. Elric was already on the shelves by then.
As I've mentioned in this thread a couple of times before, I am a huge fan of Tolkien and Moorcock and don't necessarily agree with everything that either of them say. But I don't hold with the notions that Moorcock is motivated by professional jealousy or could not have written Elric without Tolkien. Those ideas have no basis in the facts.

MulhorandSage said:
How unfortunate that Moorcock doesn't appreciate the popularity of literary approaches that differ from his.
Gotta agree with you here.

Moorcock's invective would be better served by attacking authors who follow market trands rather than their muses, or by lauding some of the great authors that we don't give enough respect toward. But then, we wouldn't be paying much attention to him if he wasn't attacking Tolkien, would we?
Actually, that is the main gist of his essay. There is much less Tolkien-hate in there than others would have you believe. His criticisms are very much levelled at the rafts of Tolkien imitators and market-chasers. And he spends far more time lauding lesser-known authors who he believes deserve more attention and respect. It's a shame that his detractors in this thread have conveniently overlooked this central issue of the essay. When I read it last week, I was far more struck by his support of other authors than his dislike of Tolkien. But what would the internet be without vitriolic haters, eh? ;)
 

Mark Hope said:
But what would the internet be without vitriolic haters, eh? ;)
*sigh* Presumably, I've been lumped in with 'them'. Either way, this probably needs to be addressed. It seems a bit like the faithful 'closing ranks', from what I've seen thus far.

Michael Moorcock has shown himself to have earned that very title you assign others (a "vitriolic hater"), from some of what I've read over the last couple of days.

Now, the thing is, I had *no* preconceived ideas about this writer as a person, before now-ish. I don't tend to leap blindly to conclusions, either. I've read some of his books, and some of Tolkien's. I'm not a rabid fan, or detractor, of either's written works. I'm not now, and I haven't ever been.

Anyway, as I said in a previous post, if anyone wants to get a clearer idea of just where Michael Moorcock stands/stood on such 'issues', I strongly suggest (for example) googling: [Moorcock Tolkien]. Something like that. Not a bad place to start at least (I seem to recall).

With some ease, you'll find a number of personal attacks of a quite venomous (and ludicrous) nature. These are Moorcock's own words, and they are rather damning.

It's not about who's 'better', or whose work outshines the other's (as far as I'm concerned), but simply whether these attacks are/were warranted, coherent, meaningful in any way whatsoever. . . that kind of thing.
 


Vigilance said:
Well, I don't see a problem with Moorcock critizing Tolkien, there's a lot to criticize. His opinion is as good as anyone else's.


Sorry, but he admits to not having actually read the work he is criticizing. His opinion is, therefore, not an informed one. Ergo, his opinion is not as good as anyone else's....merely as good as anyone else's who hasn't read LotR.

RC
 

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