Perfection marred is eternally imperfect?
Eternal damnation is... eternal?
Doesn't sound all that all-loving and forgiving, but, feels like it has precedent.
D&D 5E Moral Agency
Perfection marred is eternally imperfect?
Eternal damnation is... eternal?
Doesn't sound all that all-loving and forgiving, but, feels like it has precedent.
Oofta
Legend
Are there any examples of a demon or devil ascending to become a celestial in lore?
I know the answer in my own campaign, but it seems like most fiction (D&D related and otherwise) seems to assume that you can fall, but not rise. But, as I said before, it will depend on the DM. Could it theoretically happen? Perhaps. But if over the millennia, only a single celestial or two have fallen and no demons/devils have risen, then it's as close to impossible as to not matter.
Which has little or no relevance to individual campaigns. In some campaigns Asmodeus could be redeemed, in others orcs are born evil and are simply hard wired that way. Neither is right or wrong IMHO.
But as I said earlier, maybe it's not a question of success but the attempt. If that ogre is trying to smash you into goo so he can use your remains as a sandwich spread it may be a moot point. It's one thing to try to redeem someone when you're not in combat, but whether that's going to be an option is largely going to depend on game style. I've had NPCs that were being groomed to be the BBEG that ultimately became allies, but it was due to repeated and continuous interventions and conversations not just a one time conversation.
I know the answer in my own campaign, but it seems like most fiction (D&D related and otherwise) seems to assume that you can fall, but not rise. But, as I said before, it will depend on the DM. Could it theoretically happen? Perhaps. But if over the millennia, only a single celestial or two have fallen and no demons/devils have risen, then it's as close to impossible as to not matter.
Which has little or no relevance to individual campaigns. In some campaigns Asmodeus could be redeemed, in others orcs are born evil and are simply hard wired that way. Neither is right or wrong IMHO.
But as I said earlier, maybe it's not a question of success but the attempt. If that ogre is trying to smash you into goo so he can use your remains as a sandwich spread it may be a moot point. It's one thing to try to redeem someone when you're not in combat, but whether that's going to be an option is largely going to depend on game style. I've had NPCs that were being groomed to be the BBEG that ultimately became allies, but it was due to repeated and continuous interventions and conversations not just a one time conversation.
Still doesn't make a lick of sense.
If perfection marred is eternally imperfect... if all an angel needed was "one bad day" and they fell from grace never to rise again... while at the same time a devil could never rise no matter how well they behaved... there would be no angels left. We're talking eternity here... if it was actually possible for an angel to have a momentary lapse and then fall, then statistically every angel would eventually turn into a devil.
So either angels, devils and demons truly are bound to their alignments and don't actually rise or fall (the myths surrounding Zariel's "fall" are just that... merely myths-- she's a devil and always has been)... or else good can turn bad and bad can turn good.
This whole Dark Side of the Force "once you start down its dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" crap is a bunch of hooey if you ask me.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
Most constructs have even less free will than basic undead like skeletons and zombies. If a construct is doing evil, it is because it has been given instructions to do so, and not because it wishes to. Thus there is nothing to redeem.
A free-willed construct that has chosen to do evil is as capable of redemption as anything else for which evil and good are choices.
I generally hold that while devils, demons and celestials are embodiments of their alignment, they are corruptable/redeemable. It is just very rare, and would involve an actual change in their fundamental nature.
Unless you have an eternal process of celestial creation.
And, we run into the logical issues with absolutism - it brings into question what "perfection" means. If the celestial is perfect, in an absolute sense, then logically, how can it fall at all? How is a perfect being capable of acting in an imperfect manner? That doesn't sound "perfect" at all!
Exactly. Which is why the idea that angels can fall but devils cannot rise is logically unsound. It's either/or. Either angels and devils are both bound by their alignments and never the twain shall meet... or for every angel that falls there will usually be a devil that rises.
Now if someone wants to suggest that in the "knowledgeable history" of whatever intelligent species a particular setting has seen that there's only been one story/myth that they know of which involved an Outsider changing sides (Zariel falling for example)... then that's cool. The assumption being she was the biggest name and thus her fall got all the press, while any number of no-name devils were able to regain their wings but no one wrote stories about them. You might have something there. Although personally I think at least one devil re-achieving divinity should have made headlines by now.
Now if someone wants to suggest that in the "knowledgeable history" of whatever intelligent species a particular setting has seen that there's only been one story/myth that they know of which involved an Outsider changing sides (Zariel falling for example)... then that's cool. The assumption being she was the biggest name and thus her fall got all the press, while any number of no-name devils were able to regain their wings but no one wrote stories about them. You might have something there. Although personally I think at least one devil re-achieving divinity should have made headlines by now.
To the OP: In Monte Cook's Ptolus setting he had an organization called the Brotherhood of Redemption. They were basically a psychiatric institute that reprogrammed evil creatures like mind flayers and onis. They would pay a bounty to PCs who brought them evil intelligent monsters. That seems like it could be a good inspiration for an organization that a Redemption paladin belongs to. To me, trying to convert every last monster you come across could derail a lot of plots, hog the spotlight from other players, and just generally make life complicated for the other people at the table. But being a monster hunter sent on a mission to capture rather than kill the world's most evil creatures -- that sounds like good fun for everyone.
Oofta
Legend
Not to get too sidetracked, but isn't "reprogramming" a creature taking away their freedom of choice and kind of evil? It's one thing for someone to see the light and be convinced to change their ways, it's another to ignore what they want and "fix" them. Do the ends justify the means?
Now, if there was a way of reaching out to people trapped in an evil society that wanted to escape that might be a different story. After all, if you're the only gnoll in a clan that doesn't believe in Yeenoghu you probably won't live long if you start praising Pelor at the pack meeting.
