Morality of mind control…

[Deset Gled]

You seem to have misunderstood me.

The Jedi mind trick is 100% obviously mind control.

Lying and deception are 100% obviously not mind control.

They are categorically different things.

It's not good because you're removing someone's free will.

I don't know if there's any misunderstanding, I think there's just disagreement.

IMNSHO, magical mind control, complex deception, and lying are a gradient. They are all different methods of modifying someone's free will.

 

[MGibster]

It's not good because you're removing someone's free will. Regardless of why, that's evil. It's the circumstances, like mind controlling someone to prevent deaths...where you're committing a lesser evil to prevent a greater evil that things like mind control become acceptable. Acceptable does not equal good. It's still an evil act.

What we have here is a philosophical impasse. I don't believe in necessary evils. At least not in a moral sense. I agree it's the circumstances that matter when calculating the morality of an action. Mind controlling someone to prevent deaths isn't merely morally acceptable it's morally good. Again, depending on the circumstances.

Exactly. Greater and lesser evil. Self defense. Etc.

Self defense is not evil. If someone threatens to stick a knife in me then knocking their teeth out in response is a moral good. It's not even a little bit evil.

IMNSHO, magical mind control, complex deception, and lying are a gradient. They are all different methods of modifying someone's free will.

How far do we want to take this? If I make a coherent set of arguments supporting my conclusion and persuade you to change your mind, have I modified your free will?

 

[Deset Gled]

How far do we want to take this? If I make a coherent set of arguments supporting my conclusion and persuade you to change your mind, have I modified your free will?

Under my previous claim that it's a gradient of evil to not-evil, I'd say that situation is far enough to the not-evil side to be considered irrelevant to the discussion presented in the OP.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The topic came up in another thread and I thought it was interesting so here's a dedicated thread.

Generally speaking most people agree that mind control is evil. Full stop.

But there are exceptions. Especially in pop culture. One great example is the Jedi mind trick. Another is the DC Comics superhero Jericho from the Teen Titans.

Is mind control always evil? If so, why?

Can mind control be used for good? If so, how?

If murdering sapient creatures so you can steal their treasure is ok, then I think mind control gets a pass.

 

[Autumnal]

I prefer to lean away from anything that feels like making mind control okay, and fill up the opened space with resources for changing minds and winning support that don’t hit my “that’s transgressive” alarms. On the one hand, this includes various sorts of persuasion; on the other hand, it includes the use of various kinds of imperfect, vulnerable deceptions (the old Mission: Impossible series, for instance); on the gripping hand, it includes the use of some outright coercion, often supported by one or both of the others, to neutralize a threat without having to kill everyone targeted.

Quick mind control solves a mess of subsidiary problems for characters on their way to some larger goal. I’m very comfortable thinking that I owe it to potential players to make sure there are acceptable-to-me alternatives in place so that I’m not just telling them that this game will make everything that much harder and they can suck it up, lucky them.

 

[overgeeked]

What we have here is a philosophical impasse. I don't believe in necessary evils. I agree it's the circumstances that matter when calculating the morality of an action. Mind controlling someone to prevent deaths isn't merely morally acceptable it's morally good. Again, depending on the circumstances.

Self defense is not evil. If someone threatens to stick a knife in me then knocking their teeth out in response is a moral good. It's not even a little bit evil.

Causing harm is evil. Preventing harm, i.e. self defense, is good. Causing harm to prevent harm is somehow good? That’s confusing. Unless we’re measuring harm and comparing them. Say a broken arm vs a death. Breaking an arm to prevent death is clearly a worthwhile trade. But an arm has still been broken.

 

[overgeeked]

If murdering sapient creatures so you can steal their treasure is ok, then I think mind control gets a pass.

Depends on which violation you think is worse. At a guess quite a few people would rather die than have their mind invaded and taken over.

But that assumes murder is okay. Which it clearly isn’t.

 

[MGibster]

Causing harm is evil. Preventing harm, i.e. self defense, is good. Causing harm to prevent harm is somehow good? That’s confusing. Unless we’re measuring harm and comparing them. Say a broken arm vs a death. Breaking an arm to prevent death is clearly a worthwhile trade. But an arm has still been broken.

You've got a very Kantian view that certain actions, such as breaking an arm, is always wrong regardless of the circumstances. While that's certainly a legitimate point of view, it's not one I share. And while this discussion doesn't involve religion or politics, it's probably beyond the purview of this message board, and I don't think you and I are going to come to any agreement about this no matter how many letters we type. You've explained your point of view while being polite and I appreciate it, but I think this is probably a good spot for this conversation to end.

 

[Staffan]

Mind control is a tool, and the degree of evil it is depends on what you use it for. But that doesn't mean it's entirely neutral. A suggestion-type effect that lets you bypass a larger problem (e.g. the Jedi Mind Trick as used by Obi-Wan Kenobi) is fair. The same magic used to make someone tell you all their secrets so you can blackmail them is not.

I think the larger danger is that of corruption. If you have the ability to control minds, that can be a really easy way out sometimes. For an example of this, look at season 6 of Buffy where Willow and Tara get into a nasty fight, and afterward Willow removes Tara's memory of it. This is really similar to traditional murder-hoboing: "I'll take what I want and no-one's strong enough to stop me", but a little more subtle.

 

[NN]

i dont see how mind control through magic is worse than enforcing compliance through violence.