Morality of mind control…

[Deset Gled]

It is easy to see Obi-Wan as a master manipulator trying to revive a dying cult through mind control and indoctrination, from a certain point of view.

I'm up for "The Jedi were the real baddies: 14 reasons why I'm Pro-Empire" whenever you want to. But it would probably need to be a separate thread.

 

[kermit4karate]

The topic came up in another thread and I thought it was interesting so here's a dedicated thread.

Generally speaking most people agree that mind control is evil. Full stop.

But there are exceptions. Especially in pop culture. One great example is the Jedi mind trick. Another is the DC Comics superhero Jericho from the Teen Titans.

Is mind control always evil? If so, why?

Can mind control be used for good? If so, how?

First, great idea for a prompt! Thank you! Interesting discussion has resulted from it.

Second, yes, mind control can be used for good. Details below.

 

[jian]

First, great idea for a prompt! Thank you! Interesting discussion has resulted from it.

Second, yes, mind control can be used for good. Details below.

Anything up to and including nuclear weapons can be used for good, for a given and broad definition of “good”. The question is whether doing so is ever morally defensible (clearly it’s never going to be actually good or moral) and the answer so far seems to be “it depends on the situation, maybe yes for less terrible versions of mind control”.

I’m personally on the “I might be able to live with it, if there was no other choice, but I wouldn’t call it morally defensible” end of the spectrum.

 

[kermit4karate]

Anything up to and including nuclear weapons can be used for good, for a given and broad definition of “good”. The question is whether doing so is ever morally defensible (clearly it’s never going to be actually good or moral) and the answer so far seems to be “it depends on the situation, maybe yes for less terrible versions of mind control”.

I’m personally on the “I might be able to live with it, if there was no other choice, but I wouldn’t call it morally defensible” end of the spectrum.

Fair enough. I mostly agree, except that I would absolutely say it can be morally defensible, all depending on the scenario.

In fact, I can see situations in which someone would actually pay someone to use mind control on them to help them with an addiction or to help deal with psychological trauma or overcome a personal challenge.

There wouldn't be anything to defend there. The use of mind control would actually be a blessing!

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

I don’t see why mind control should be implicitly evil when chopping heads of with a sword is tied to context dependent morality. I don’t want to be mind controlled, but it’s better than getting a dagger in my heart.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd rather be the victim of a Jedi mind trick than being stabbed in the face a well. We should form a club. One of the most horrifying examples of mind control I've seen on television was David Tennant's portrayal of Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. I don't know how long I could be his puppet before I started praying for death.

Imagine being under the control of your enemy who orders you to kill or otherwise harm your comrades and loved ones. You're completely aware of what you're doing but you simply cannot disobey. I honestly might prefer death.

The 2024 PHB says the victim is aware they were charmed once the spell wears out but doesn't state they're hostile.

There are always circumstances where it would be worse. Still not sure it's true as a general, objective fact (as it was presented).

 

[jian]

Fair enough. I mostly agree, except that I would absolutely say it can be morally defensible, all depending on the scenario.

In fact, I can see situations in which someone would actually pay someone to use mind control on them to help them with an addiction or to help deal with psychological trauma or overcome a personal challenge.

There wouldn't be anything to defend there. The use of mind control would actually be a blessing!

Yes, that’s a good edge case. But if you want to be mind controlled - or rather, have someone adjust your mind as you request - that isn’t mind control, no more than antidepressants are poisoning. I would define mind control by its very nature as being coercive and unwanted by the recipient.

As for mental violence is better or worse than physical violence - well, they’re both forms of violence, one is not by definition morally superior to the other. Both might be defensible due to circumstances such as self defence.

 

[kermit4karate]

Yes, that’s a good edge case. But if you want to be mind controlled - or rather, have someone adjust your mind as you request - that isn’t mind control, no more than antidepressants are poisoning. I would define mind control by its very nature as being coercive and unwanted by the recipient.

We might be splitting hairs at this point. I think most of the people on this thread have decided where they line up on the original question of whether mind control <insert your own personal definition of it here> can ever be considered good.

Like many things RPG related, it comes down to how one defines a certain term, and we're never all going to agree on that.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Fair enough. I mostly agree, except that I would absolutely say it can be morally defensible, all depending on the scenario.

In fact, I can see situations in which someone would actually pay someone to use mind control on them to help them with an addiction or to help deal with psychological trauma or overcome a personal challenge.

There wouldn't be anything to defend there. The use of mind control would actually be a blessing!

Reminds me of Clockwork Orange. You know, some mental conditioning to curb the ultra-violence.

That said, he didn’t exact pay to get that service. But it was for the protection of society. Right?….right?

 

[kermit4karate]

Reminds me of Clockwork Orange. You know, some mental conditioning to curb the ultra-violence.

That said, he didn’t exact pay to get that service. But it was for the protection of society. Right?….right?

Ha! That one's decidedly more in the gray area.