Morality, oh and come in and help out!

[Liquide]

Well something that I found rather intresting in a thread about Paladins (again) is if they are allowed to kill any and all evil (yet again) beings they encounter.

Well they can detect evil and are the champions of righteous and good, so lets see a little here. They are to make sure laws are followed (if founded by a society that wants good), and that the little mans rights are there aswell.

Well in the real worlds everything is done in finer shades of grey, in the dnd universe (maybe not your campaign world but the default setting at least) everything is either black or white. And for a Paladin it is even worse, for them it is either shining white or pitch black.

So now we do a scenario for your brainstorming.

_________________________

Huigrath is a respected Lawful Evil merchant that deals in jewellery for the upper class in a great capitol, he also deals with smugglers and goods that you don't ask from where it comes from (this is done in the shades and society as a whole does not know about this).

Now an adventuring party enters the town after they have taken care of a threat from a quite young black dragon, the people that lives in this capitol havn't yet heard of these adventurers since they come from far lands (or are just on the walk for the next treasure to find or evil to bash). In this party we have a Paladin that believes strictly in good and obeying the laws of this community (which is Lawful with both Good and Neutral tendencies).

The Paladin tries to find a church of his god in this capitol but discovers that they have ventured too far from his home-grounds and that no temple of his god can be found. He and his fellows are also rather unheard of so they have to find someplace to sleep for the night.

In any case the party decides that they are worth really nice rooms and good food, even the paladin decides that this might be a good choice since they have been pretty beaten up and the roads have been their friends for months, in addition a good nights rest is worth hundreds in the wilderness.

So they enter the Inn of the Golden Cockatrice a few minutes before nightfall, this however happens to be the Inn of the Upper Class and has quite high prices but the party decides that they are worth it anyhow.

So in any case they are seated in a table in the far end of the room (since after all they look rather rowdy and the people in here doesn't want them to be seen by everyone that comes in here, it is an Tavern/Inn for the Upper-Class after all).

When they sit there and eat Huigrath enters the Inn after a hard days work, he has managed to get ahold of nice golden necklace for the City Lords daughter that he liked quite much and is very well liked by him (and also by the rest of the Nobility and Upper-Class in town).

This necklace was however stolen from the dead body of Lady Ygranea (from another county leagues away), and when the assassin that had taken care of the lady left that domain he travelled to another part of world to try to find a buyer for the necklace where it wouldn't be as hard to sell it.

Huigrath asked this assassin when he came to see him (they are both part of the underworld and shadows after all) how he got a hold of this necklace, well even though the assassin didn't tell Huigrath right out how he got it Huigrath got the point rather fast.

So now when he enters this tavern the Paladin detects evil in Huigrath and starts to feel annoyed by the precense of evil. He however before he does anything else asks the barkeep (that happened to be at their table with the third round of ales) who the man that just entered is.

The barkeep explain that Huigrath is a well seen man and quite popular at the Lord and amongst other people throughout town. And that he donates a quite fair sum of money to the churches and the poor in town (well even when evil, you would do anything to try and not appear evil wouldn't you).

So what does the Paladin do in this case?

1. Promtly draws his sword and slays Huigrath where he stands.
2. Goes to the Lord / Court and explains that this man is evil (even though he has no hard evidence) and that he must be jailed.
3. Talks with his party about this man and that they should follow him and do a little investigation of their own to see whom this fellow really is. Then if they find proof about evil acts slay him where he stands.
4. As above but take the evidence gathered against Huigrath and turn him over to law for a fair trial.
5. Other action, please explain below.
   [/list=1]

 

[jdavis]

4 would be the logical and sensible thing to do, it would keep with what is good and what is the local law. 1 & 3 would break the law of the town, unfortuantly that is where alot of players go with their Paladin characters but murder is murder, and that is neither lawful or good. Challenging him to a duel would be within what I'd consider ok in regards to keeping true to being a Paladin, but would be a terribly stupid move to make at this point.

 

[Liquide]

4 would be the logical and sensible thing to do, it would keep with what is good and what is the local law. 1 & 3 would break the law of the town, unfortuantly that is where alot of players go with their Paladin characters but murder is murder, and that is neither lawful or good. Challenging him to a duel would be within what I'd consider ok in regards to keeping true to being a Paladin, but would be a terribly stupid move to make at this point.

Well it is a little moral dilemma, I will create more of them as time goes by. You think I should add the duel option to my list?

 

[Tonguez]

Option 6 Detect Evil detects Evil Creatures - Huigrath is NOT an Evil Creature (alignment is not a Creature Descriptor) he is a Humanoid Creature with an evil alignment

Otherwise (ie if you use the Detect Evil mega-radar variant)Option 5 - stay silent until One knows more about this town and its culture - maybe the whole Merchants Guild and Nobility is part of some Dark Cult and thrall to some Demon-god...MWAHAHAHA!

 

[Liquide]

Option 6 Detect Evil detects Evil Creatures - Huigrath is NOT an Evil Creature (alignment is not a Creature Descriptor) he is a Humanoid Creature with an evil alignment

Otherwise (ie if you use the Detect Evil mega-radar variant)Option 5 - stay silent until One knows more about this town and its culture - maybe the whole Merchants Guild and Nobility is part of some Dark Cult and thrall to some Demon-god...MWAHAHAHA!

From the SRD

Detect Evil: At will, the paladin can detect evil as a spell-like ability. This ability duplicates the effects of the spell detect evil.

Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1, Rgr 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The character can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long the character studies a particular area or subject:
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the strength of the strongest evil aura present. If the character is of good alignment, the strongest evil aura’s strength is "overwhelming" (see below), and the strength is at least twice the character's character level, the character is stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. While the character is stunned, the character can’t act, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack the character.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If an aura is outside the character's line of sight, then the character discerns its direction but not its exact location.
Aura Strength: An aura’s evil power and strength depend on the type of evil creature or object that the character is detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level.
Creature/Object Evil Power
--------------- ----------
Evil creature HD / 5
Undead creature HD / 2
Evil elemental HD / 2
Evil magic item
or spell Caster level / 2
Evil outsider HD
Cleric of an
evil deity Level
Evil Power Aura Strength
---------- -------------
Lingering Dim
1 or less Faint
2–4 Moderate
5–10 Strong
11+ Overwhelming
If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
Length Aura Lingers: How long the aura lingers depends on its original strength:
Original Strength Duration
----------------- --------
Faint 1d6 minutes
Moderate 1d6 X 10 minutes
Strong 1d6 hours
Overwhelming 1d6 days
Remember that animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil; this spell does not detect them.
Note: Each round, the character can turn to detect things in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

and it does detect alignments, Paladins ability works as the spell I might note you who missed it.

 

[shilsen]

So what does the Paladin do in this case?

1. Promtly draws his sword and slays Huigrath where he stands.
2. Goes to the Lord / Court and explains that this man is evil (even though he has no hard evidence) and that he must be jailed.
3. Talks with his party about this man and that they should follow him and do a little investigation of their own to see whom this fellow really is. Then if they find proof about evil acts slay him where he stands.
4. As above but take the evidence gathered against Huigrath and turn him over to law for a fair trial.
5. Other action, please explain below.
   [/list=1]

1. 
   
   I think I was one of the people who started the debate in the thread you mentioned. My response is (5). The paladin does nothing, mainly because when he detects evil (presuming it's a fairly busy tavern), a number of people around him have faint evil auras. As I maintained in that thread, and still do, in any mixed society there will be a large number of evil people in existence, functioning as useful members of society. Plus, detect evil is only usable by clerics, paladins, and rangers. These two facts (in the core rules) contribute to alignment not having any legal bearing whatsoever. Of the options mentioned above, 1 and 3 would be evil. 2 would be dumb. 4 could be done, but there is no reason for the paladin to consider Huigrath any more deserving of special attention than any of the 'mildly' evil people he meets on a daily basis.
   
   All of the above is based on this happening in my campaign, of course, but I think it is supported by the core rules, as written. Feel free to disagree

 

[Deadguy]

shilsen makes a fair point that context is important in these moral dilemmas. Examples are always given in the format you describe, leaving out the fact that unless there's a special reason to, there will be other people who also detect evil in an urban public environment. When you give the paladin this additional information you create a real dilemma which also gives him a reasonable way out. It quickly becomes clear that neither one paladin nor even one paladinic order can actually deal with all the people who ping on detect evil; there are simply too many of them in any reasonable size community. The solution is thus for paladins to focus their efforts on those who are actively being evil (observed participating in nefarious plots and the like), rather than dealing with every random passerby.

It's neither unreasonable, nor punishable, for the paladin to do naught to Master Huigrath above.

 

[Hand of Evil]

5. Okay, define evil in your game. What is evil, what makes a character bad, slavery, drugs, cold-blooded murder, kicking puppies, being an orc?

Now, to measure evil, one little thing, not too much evil there, so the guy does not like puppies and kicks them everyday. I would hate him but does he have to die for it? Now, he takes slaves, has murdered people and kicks puppies, the guy is going to fall down some stairs or have a shaving mishap.

Whoo now, being lawful means following the rules. I play that all are not guility until proven so. Well, there is trial by combat, he is evil I call him out and kill him, proving he was evil. Then there is the government; let them find him guilty but they are going to want proof.

Evil has to be defined. The paladin may not like the person, may not trust him but it does not give them the right to kill at the least sign of evil. What happens if an evil character gives up and asks the paladin for protection and justice from the courts only to have the paladin to kill him, that is cold-blooded murder and the paladin has committed an evil act. Catch 22. It is judgement.

 

[Henry]

To me, #4 is the correct option. Neutral to me implies good AND evil in the same person - Huigrath from your description strikes me as closer to Neutral than evil (unless he has been dealing in some really nasty stuff we do not know about, such as rape or torture). But if he is evil enough to be EVIL, then the paladin, if he took the time to detect, WOULD notice it and want to investigate.

 

[Carnifex]

Hugrath is not an Evil creature.

He has an evil alignment, and as such this is completely different. He is not made up of pure evil, and thus the paladin has no reason to just kill him. He is evil in alignment, but that of itself *is not a crime* unless you're in a kind of totalitarian Good state (or maybe some types of dictatorial Lawful states). He is evil - he is possibly selfish, nasty, mean, does dodgy business, but even evil people can be nice and kind to those they like, love or respect; they can have loving families, donate to the poor, etc. What the paladin is picking up is merely personality traits, not innate destructive vileness. There's probably a person on every street who has an evil alignment; unpleasant people maybe, or selfish gits, or criminals. The paladin cannot just go around decimating essentially inocent populations to suit his own brand of morality.

Now if the paladin knows that the emrchatn has some... 'dodgy' business practices, he should then investigate. But a paladin, as a Lawful individual, should *not* just step up and slay the merchant, because that is most likely against the laws of the l;and that they are in.