More lay-offs at WOTC! [Merged]
- Thread starter jaults
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Psion
Adventurer
someone said:
You speak as if most of us care about the fate of WotC. So long as D&D survives and prospers, that is all I care about.
I doubt D&D will go anywhere in the long haul... and d20 will ensure that the game continues to get support. But it would be best for the gamers if D&D itself is supported by a creative and vital company. Whether that company is WotC is immaterial.
Well, I just played catch up on this thread, and felt like a should add a few more cp's...
Earlier in the thread, Beholder stated that he would be boycotting WotC and buying strictly 3rd party material. His exact quote was "...YES! You made money with me, I guess that I have more than 600$ of books from you..." (apologies to Beholder if you object to me taking this particular statement out of context).
I'd say that's what Hasbro is counting on here. A large amount of people have bought all of the core books, splatbooks, and setting books that are out there that have been published by WotC. Hasbro knows this, and they know that the market is about ready to hit saturation. After all, how many PH's does one D&D player need, anyway? And how many 2nd Ed core books did you buy after your initial purchases (I would buy one every 5 years due to wear and tear myself - but I'm reaaaaly hard on books)?
I think the point is that Hasbro has figured out that D&D is a very cyclic beast, with large profit margins to be made when a new edition comes out, and small profit margins to be had in the interim. And, as we probably can surmise, Hasbro bought WotC for the Pokemon Franchise - at its peak a very high profit margin entity. My guess is that Hasbro just can't be bothered with the lower profit margin material in the low period of the cycle (like modules and sourcebooks).
Enter the OGL...
It could be argued that the OGL is simply allowing 3rd party developers to deal with the interim cycle profits that are otherwise too small for Hasbro to bother over, while still allowing WotC/Hasbro to retain the rights to sell the hottest selling material during the next peak period (which, if the cycle is consistent, will begin gearing up around 2008 or 2009 - I would look for the "mythical" 4th Ed to come out about 2010 or so).
Hopefully, someone with a little more knowledge about the real motivations behind these decisions will eventually come forward, but until then, we're stuck speculating (like I just did!).
Well, there's my two brass bits...
Earlier in the thread, Beholder stated that he would be boycotting WotC and buying strictly 3rd party material. His exact quote was "...YES! You made money with me, I guess that I have more than 600$ of books from you..." (apologies to Beholder if you object to me taking this particular statement out of context).
I'd say that's what Hasbro is counting on here. A large amount of people have bought all of the core books, splatbooks, and setting books that are out there that have been published by WotC. Hasbro knows this, and they know that the market is about ready to hit saturation. After all, how many PH's does one D&D player need, anyway? And how many 2nd Ed core books did you buy after your initial purchases (I would buy one every 5 years due to wear and tear myself - but I'm reaaaaly hard on books)?
I think the point is that Hasbro has figured out that D&D is a very cyclic beast, with large profit margins to be made when a new edition comes out, and small profit margins to be had in the interim. And, as we probably can surmise, Hasbro bought WotC for the Pokemon Franchise - at its peak a very high profit margin entity. My guess is that Hasbro just can't be bothered with the lower profit margin material in the low period of the cycle (like modules and sourcebooks).
Enter the OGL...
It could be argued that the OGL is simply allowing 3rd party developers to deal with the interim cycle profits that are otherwise too small for Hasbro to bother over, while still allowing WotC/Hasbro to retain the rights to sell the hottest selling material during the next peak period (which, if the cycle is consistent, will begin gearing up around 2008 or 2009 - I would look for the "mythical" 4th Ed to come out about 2010 or so).
Hopefully, someone with a little more knowledge about the real motivations behind these decisions will eventually come forward, but until then, we're stuck speculating (like I just did!).
Well, there's my two brass bits...
Re: My Opinion
This might sound like a way to revitalize, say an armchair company, and try to make it more profitable by cutting out the highest paid personal but, making armchairs and armchair related products dosen't require the creativity of something like an RPG company.
Armchair limited makes money by making and selling THE SAME 10-20 models of armchair's and armchair related products while, at the same time, keeping expenses as low as possible. Trying to impose this thinking on an industry that is always trying to come up with a new "model" of product every few months isn't really fair to the RPG industry.
Take for example Armchair Limited profits are down, as a way to increase profit they lay off some of the highest paid workers, in the short term this works the way they had hoped expenses are lowered, i.e. employees salaries. After about six months however profit once again faces a downturn, this one even sharper then the first one, why? Well as it turns out when they let all those veteran people go product quality took a sharp downturn as the newer people did not have the experiance to make the product as well as it was before the vets were let go, and they did not even have to think up new models of armchairs to make. Maybe quality will improve after the new people are there long enough to learn all the ways to improve the product but, how long will that take? And, once they do improve the product, will people that saw the bad product or where warned by others about the product bother to look at it again.
This is probably what Hasbro is going for in terms of the layoffs, what most gamers are worried about is the quality of D&D from WotC, yes I think that it sucks all those people got layed off, not only the names I know but also the people that don't have names I know. I too worry about D&D will it survive as I know and love it? I hope so but time will tell.(p.s. I don't have a million posts here so you must listen to me
mean slam dude
)
Da Man said:
This might sound like a way to revitalize, say an armchair company, and try to make it more profitable by cutting out the highest paid personal but, making armchairs and armchair related products dosen't require the creativity of something like an RPG company.
Armchair limited makes money by making and selling THE SAME 10-20 models of armchair's and armchair related products while, at the same time, keeping expenses as low as possible. Trying to impose this thinking on an industry that is always trying to come up with a new "model" of product every few months isn't really fair to the RPG industry.
Take for example Armchair Limited profits are down, as a way to increase profit they lay off some of the highest paid workers, in the short term this works the way they had hoped expenses are lowered, i.e. employees salaries. After about six months however profit once again faces a downturn, this one even sharper then the first one, why? Well as it turns out when they let all those veteran people go product quality took a sharp downturn as the newer people did not have the experiance to make the product as well as it was before the vets were let go, and they did not even have to think up new models of armchairs to make. Maybe quality will improve after the new people are there long enough to learn all the ways to improve the product but, how long will that take? And, once they do improve the product, will people that saw the bad product or where warned by others about the product bother to look at it again.
This is probably what Hasbro is going for in terms of the layoffs, what most gamers are worried about is the quality of D&D from WotC, yes I think that it sucks all those people got layed off, not only the names I know but also the people that don't have names I know. I too worry about D&D will it survive as I know and love it? I hope so but time will tell.(p.s. I don't have a million posts here so you must listen to me
mean slam dude )
Katerek
Iconic Gnoll
I cant help it. I have to post on this.
I understand why Hasbro is doing what it is doing, I don't agree with it, bu tI do understand. They are clearly trying to make each division stand on it's own two feet, and that is a good thing. The only thing that concerns me is what they use for measurement. I cannot in my heart of hearts believe that they are honestly judging ANYTHING based on pokemon. If they are, they are fools beyond belief.
Pokemon was a toy fad, and toy fads NEVER last. As a toy manufacturer, I would hope they would know this. As evidence, I offer you cabbage patch kinds, tickle me elmo, furby, atari, the death of superman comic, etc. These pop culture fads don't last because their target audience, children, do not have attention spans that last, further more, at that age after a single year has gone by they are completely different people and their interests have thoroughly changed!
Pokemon could have been a gateway game. A progression from Pokemon, to M:tG, to Mage Knight, to Table Top Games, to finally DnD is natural and I have seen it happening on a local scale to some great degree.
The same kids that were playing Pokemon two years ago have legions of Mage Knight figs, and I have already seen a few of them at the 'grown up' (loose term) tables that feature Warhammer and Battletech. They will eventually get into the Pen and Paper aspect of it, but these things take time.
Assuming DnD lasts, and it will in some fashion or another, in two to three years there will be some type of re-release. Probably an updated book or two with new art, designed for this new audience. That will last 4 or 5 years and then we will see the new addition, which will go into pre-design about the time the new release comes along.
As for everyone who lost their jobs, that is truly Hasbrp's greatest loss, god forbid Corporations ever lay off the over payed imbeciles who make idiotic decisions in the first place. The suits always lay off the working man first and it sucks but that is the way it is.
Ultimately if those folks wanna keep on designing and working in the game industry, I doubt it will take long to see their names under Green Ronin, or Malhavoc's banner. Or some other equally top notch third party publisher.
My personal belief is that it will only be a matter of time before there are two or three third party folks out there giving Hasbro a run for its money on the d20 market. And quite frankly, anything that raises the bar is good for the game, and ultimately good for us.
Oh and one last thing, if one of the big names win's the setting search, take that big bank roll and invest it. Then in two or three years, use the captital to secure the financing necessary to buy DnD! THAT would be irony!
I understand why Hasbro is doing what it is doing, I don't agree with it, bu tI do understand. They are clearly trying to make each division stand on it's own two feet, and that is a good thing. The only thing that concerns me is what they use for measurement. I cannot in my heart of hearts believe that they are honestly judging ANYTHING based on pokemon. If they are, they are fools beyond belief.
Pokemon was a toy fad, and toy fads NEVER last. As a toy manufacturer, I would hope they would know this. As evidence, I offer you cabbage patch kinds, tickle me elmo, furby, atari, the death of superman comic, etc. These pop culture fads don't last because their target audience, children, do not have attention spans that last, further more, at that age after a single year has gone by they are completely different people and their interests have thoroughly changed!
Pokemon could have been a gateway game. A progression from Pokemon, to M:tG, to Mage Knight, to Table Top Games, to finally DnD is natural and I have seen it happening on a local scale to some great degree.
The same kids that were playing Pokemon two years ago have legions of Mage Knight figs, and I have already seen a few of them at the 'grown up' (loose term) tables that feature Warhammer and Battletech. They will eventually get into the Pen and Paper aspect of it, but these things take time.
Assuming DnD lasts, and it will in some fashion or another, in two to three years there will be some type of re-release. Probably an updated book or two with new art, designed for this new audience. That will last 4 or 5 years and then we will see the new addition, which will go into pre-design about the time the new release comes along.
As for everyone who lost their jobs, that is truly Hasbrp's greatest loss, god forbid Corporations ever lay off the over payed imbeciles who make idiotic decisions in the first place. The suits always lay off the working man first and it sucks but that is the way it is.
Ultimately if those folks wanna keep on designing and working in the game industry, I doubt it will take long to see their names under Green Ronin, or Malhavoc's banner. Or some other equally top notch third party publisher.
My personal belief is that it will only be a matter of time before there are two or three third party folks out there giving Hasbro a run for its money on the d20 market. And quite frankly, anything that raises the bar is good for the game, and ultimately good for us.
Oh and one last thing, if one of the big names win's the setting search, take that big bank roll and invest it. Then in two or three years, use the captital to secure the financing necessary to buy DnD! THAT would be irony!
JeffB
Legend
Actually I wanted to post this in the other thread but it was closed down...so just consider it some rambling...
You know I’m usually the last one to comment on this sort of thing (other than about specific folks who have been cut), but I think some folks here just don't see the forest for the trees.
Thing’s have not become better. Every layoff (what 3 or 4 in the past 2 years) has been bigger, and cut deeper into the creative pool. People are not being hired back. The core books were bumped up to the high prices (which signifies sales are starting to fall off). The release schedule gets thinner and thinner. This is not a sign of “health”. I deal with stuff constantly in my line of work, and I’ve been through several layoffs…fact is layoffs occur when something is going south. Then the reduced staff are expected to pick up slack… If things continue to go south, they layoff more folks, because they cannot afford to keep them around because the company is not making enough money. More layoffs doesn’t mean health…it means things are getting worse. Reducing your company from 700 to 250 people is not a good thing. While this MAY make Hasbro/WOTC healthy in the long run, it really bodes ill for the health of D&D. Selling off magazines that were supposedly so profitable and deemed as having better subscription rates than they had in years does not constitute health. As some have mentioned on another thread there ARE things that can be done that will totally screw the D20 market especially to smaller companies (which is the majority). Even Monte Cook mentioned the potential for some serious deep doo-doo in an interview he did on another gaming site.
How bad does it have to get before folks will admit that D&D as run by WOTC/Hasbro is in the aforementioned deep doo-doo? Will another layoff of 100 employees signify there’s finally a real problem? Reducing the release schedule some more? Getting rid of more creative folk and demoting some higher ups in R&D? Selling off more divisions? Cancel some more lines?
Healthy companies expand, and grow, and produce more and/or better products. They don’t layoff people by the hundreds including veteran employees (wonder how this affects Skip’s retirement savings/plans if he had any), sell off divisions, the biggest gaming convention in the world, and produce less and less product.
Will D&D proper die? I don’t think so, but I’m not sure how anyone can’t see that D&D under WOTC/Hasbro is dying a slow painful death.
You know I’m usually the last one to comment on this sort of thing (other than about specific folks who have been cut), but I think some folks here just don't see the forest for the trees.
Thing’s have not become better. Every layoff (what 3 or 4 in the past 2 years) has been bigger, and cut deeper into the creative pool. People are not being hired back. The core books were bumped up to the high prices (which signifies sales are starting to fall off). The release schedule gets thinner and thinner. This is not a sign of “health”. I deal with stuff constantly in my line of work, and I’ve been through several layoffs…fact is layoffs occur when something is going south. Then the reduced staff are expected to pick up slack… If things continue to go south, they layoff more folks, because they cannot afford to keep them around because the company is not making enough money. More layoffs doesn’t mean health…it means things are getting worse. Reducing your company from 700 to 250 people is not a good thing. While this MAY make Hasbro/WOTC healthy in the long run, it really bodes ill for the health of D&D. Selling off magazines that were supposedly so profitable and deemed as having better subscription rates than they had in years does not constitute health. As some have mentioned on another thread there ARE things that can be done that will totally screw the D20 market especially to smaller companies (which is the majority). Even Monte Cook mentioned the potential for some serious deep doo-doo in an interview he did on another gaming site.
How bad does it have to get before folks will admit that D&D as run by WOTC/Hasbro is in the aforementioned deep doo-doo? Will another layoff of 100 employees signify there’s finally a real problem? Reducing the release schedule some more? Getting rid of more creative folk and demoting some higher ups in R&D? Selling off more divisions? Cancel some more lines?
Healthy companies expand, and grow, and produce more and/or better products. They don’t layoff people by the hundreds including veteran employees (wonder how this affects Skip’s retirement savings/plans if he had any), sell off divisions, the biggest gaming convention in the world, and produce less and less product.
Will D&D proper die? I don’t think so, but I’m not sure how anyone can’t see that D&D under WOTC/Hasbro is dying a slow painful death.
[speculation]
I just had a random thought. It's probably BS, but it's kind of interesting. I am wondering what role, if any, the setting search played in this round of layoffs.
If all 11 winners came from the outside, did Hasbro/WotC decide that the R&D group wasn't innovative enough? Was the setting search a way of having them interview for their own jobs?
[/speculation]
I just had a random thought. It's probably BS, but it's kind of interesting. I am wondering what role, if any, the setting search played in this round of layoffs.
If all 11 winners came from the outside, did Hasbro/WotC decide that the R&D group wasn't innovative enough? Was the setting search a way of having them interview for their own jobs?
[/speculation]
AussieMoose
First Post
Layoffs @ WoTC
Unfortunately this is the way of the modern "business".
Ethics, Integrity, Loyalty, Experience and other outmoded concepts can be thrown away for "current and projected profit margins".
In regards to MTG (Magic:The Gathering), don't worry, they are making PLENTY off it, but does it compare to Hasbro profits? How about vs Harry Potter sales? Other market leaders?
D&D is still the small fish in Hasbro's barrel, even in the U.S. and Hasbro is VERY profit minded.
Some of their own problems have been caused by their inability to grow the business to new customers (think % growth) and to not PROMOTE the RPG sector, locally and on a worldwide scale.
I agree with earlier comments that WoTC will flick the current talent and hire "newbies" and cheap freelancers, on an Ad-hoc basis, as they need to.
It all comes down to the $$$ in a big corporation (despite the fact that a big corporation can cover more $$ than a small one.
)
Thats my 5 cents, if it makes any sense at all.
If not, assume I am a braindead aussie with a koala.
Unfortunately this is the way of the modern "business".
Ethics, Integrity, Loyalty, Experience and other outmoded concepts can be thrown away for "current and projected profit margins".
In regards to MTG (Magic:The Gathering), don't worry, they are making PLENTY off it, but does it compare to Hasbro profits? How about vs Harry Potter sales? Other market leaders?
D&D is still the small fish in Hasbro's barrel, even in the U.S. and Hasbro is VERY profit minded.
Some of their own problems have been caused by their inability to grow the business to new customers (think % growth) and to not PROMOTE the RPG sector, locally and on a worldwide scale.
I agree with earlier comments that WoTC will flick the current talent and hire "newbies" and cheap freelancers, on an Ad-hoc basis, as they need to.
It all comes down to the $$$ in a big corporation (despite the fact that a big corporation can cover more $$ than a small one.
)Thats my 5 cents, if it makes any sense at all.
If not, assume I am a braindead aussie with a koala.
Cergorach
The Laughing One
Well, D&D and D20 are not the only games out there, neither is WotC/Hasbro the only games company. When i look at WizKids they seem to be doing extremely well. With the release of Mechwarrior: Dark Age (a mageknight version of battletech), they sold in the first two weeks more than 500.000 boosterpacks ($10 each) and more than 100.000 Starterpacks ($20 each). If the economy was down that much they wouldn't have sold so much IMHO. Also WizKids is Lisencing the Battletech Liscence to FanPro to keep producing (Classic) Battletech supplements. And do you know how many people there are fulltime emloyed to work on the CBT line? One (1) person, the rest is done by free lancers.
What has this to do with D&D? Well, i wouldn't be supprised that the entire D&D 'team' would end up being a single person that oversees consistency and 'quality', the rest being done by freelancers. What can freelancers not do that, WotC employees can do? Employees are expensive, freelancers a lot less so...
Not that i'm really happy with the prospect, but it would seem like the most cost effective strategy to me...
What has this to do with D&D? Well, i wouldn't be supprised that the entire D&D 'team' would end up being a single person that oversees consistency and 'quality', the rest being done by freelancers. What can freelancers not do that, WotC employees can do? Employees are expensive, freelancers a lot less so...
Not that i'm really happy with the prospect, but it would seem like the most cost effective strategy to me...
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