Pathfinder 1E More realistic characters. Nitty-gritty campaign. Determining what levels/abilities mean?

[Brokenheart]

Hey all,

I've been reading through the SRDs looking at varous npcs and pcs, and thinking to myself...how do real life folks measure up? What if I want to design a campaign without the over-the-top heroic stuff and have it more nitty-gritty, forcing the players to be more strategic and think more..rather than just rush in. How would a real life soldier, doctor, or carpenter measure up in terms of levels and abilities? I've read several articles, including the Alexandrian. It's proven to be fun to try and stat up people I know or have met, as well as fictional characters from favored books. I find it odd that average people would always have 10's and 11's across the board...by the carry and lift chart, I'd have a strength of 14 (lifting 175 overhead...a man can push-press.) So, in wanting to design a more horror-based, nitty-gritty campaign, I will try and figure it out.

I don't really see how, though, that experience level in itself, could be a measure of the best of anything..
A level 3 character, such as say a carpenter with the appropriate skills, "feats", abilities could easily reach a skill point of 20+. level 3--7 skill ranks, skill focus (3), ability of 18 (4) plus a helper (aid another, +2), manuals (+2), well-made tools (+2-3)..20. 25 is typically the highest DC. Yes, 18-20 is typically seen as the
height of human ability, and I was trying to model the "best" afterall. So, why would the best neccessarily
be at level five? What if you have a level five whom has no skill ranks over 5, and has no ability over 14..
no skill focus. What is he the best at? Being a jack of all trades or a mish-mash of this and that? Even a level 3 with an ability of 16 can reach 20, with the right build up.

I think that the characters largely depend upon ability, take an expert with an intelligence of 18 (at level 3),
and compare it to an expert with an intelligence of 14 (at level 5) and compare them.. 70/58, a difference of
12 points..however, if you count the bonus on knowledge skills/etc, 12 of them, it makes a larger difference
118/82. Yes, one can take more skill ranks, but what with the appropriate feats, extras..either can get to 20+. Also, the higher intelligence bonus makes up the difference on an intelligence-based skill. So, all in all,
wouldn't ability make the greater difference? Wouldn't ability really dictate the best or most-able? The same implies to games of sport or characters such as a police officer or a soldier. Example, the world's best shooter
could be modeled as a level 3 with the appropriate feats, an 18 in dexterity, as well as a highly well-made rifle
plus equally well-made ammunition, add in the appropriate feats, considering the use of a scope, tripod, positioned either crouched or prone, add in a spotter, highground, etc..and you can get up to a total of 17-19.

Also, the example above works with warriors as well -- level 3 with 18 vs level 5 with 14 -- who wins? 3+4 or 5+2..hehe..they are almost equal, except in that a melee'er with 18 will have 2 points more in damage, or 4 with a two-hander while a shooter with 18 dexterity will have 2 more points in initiative and defense. Ability.

Of course, a level 5 with 18 would be even better, I'm just saying that character level in itself really doesn't seem to hold up to describing the "Best of the Best", ability does a better job of that in my own humble opinion. So, as far as I can see it, a level 3 with a high ability (18+) can easily represent what could be considered the "best" in a given field. A character can be level 5 or 6, but without an appropriate and high ability, it looses alot of it's bluster. I find that a point-buy of 18-20 with a level limit of up to 5th, MAYBE 6th,
can define a game or campaign which could be much more nitty-gritty and fun. Especially if you want to make
good use of magic-user/warrior types.
--
Also, I've noticed some folks trying to model LOTR...hehe..good luck with that. But I will say, you could do so with up to 5-6 levels. The key would likely be in abilities. Notice the difference between a certain grey-wearing wizard before he takes the white...when his wits aren't "dulled by the halfling's leaf". A 5th level fireball, in my
own humble opinion, is pretty flippin' nasty. A 5th level caster, in my opinion, does have quite a bit of power,
however, the higher his int/wis/or cha can play a heavy role in determining how powerful...afterall...one fireball is bad..but 3 is much worse.

 

[delericho]

As far as I'm aware, Paizo class levels 1-5 as "low-level", levels 6-12 as "mid-level", and levels 13+ as "high-level". In general, I've found this to be pretty much spot-on, at least in 3.5e; I'm not sure whether Pathfinder is exactly the same.

My rule of thumb, which is by no means universal of course, is that PCs in the low levels are basically human - the kinds of things that they can do without magic are broadly what a real-world person can do. (In the case of non-human characters or any instances of magic, you of course have to extrapolate.) That's not perfect of course - notably, the hit point system is in no way realistic.

However, even in those low levels, indeed even at level 1, the PCs are a "cut above" - they're not superhuman, but they are exceptional individuals, the best of the best. This is reflected in the fact that PCs get 28 point buy instead of the NPC's 15, they get maximum hit points at first level, and they get to use PC rather than NPC classes.

Once you move to the mid-levels, PCs are strictly superhuman in their capabilities, but they remain recognisable. That is, they can do things that the man on the street simply can't, but it remains possible to envisage how they would do these things. They're Aragorn, or Lancelot - you hear tales about how they fought off a horde of orcs single-handedly... but they don't outright fly, or fight gods, or whatever. (Again, you need to extrapolate for a magical universe.)

And at high-levels, the PCs are veritable demigods, and virtually no tale you might hear about their skills is too "out there".

FWIW, I peg the four hobbits from LotR as 1st level when they leave the Shire (specifically, Sam becomes 1st level when he stops, says "if I take one more step", and then takes that step), and rising to 5th level by the "Scouring of the Shire". I peg Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli at 6th level when they leave Rivendell, rising to 12th level by the end. (Boromir, the greatest of all warriors amongst Men, is 5th level at the Council of Elrond.) And Gandalf is 12th level at the start of LotR, attaining 13th level (and thus "high level") when he defeats the Balrog.

 

[Jester David]

However, even in those low levels, indeed even at level 1, the PCs are a "cut above" - they're not superhuman, but they are exceptional individuals, the best of the best. This is reflected in the fact that PCs get 28 point buy instead of the NPC's 15, they get maximum hit points at first level, and they get to use PC rather than NPC classes.

Pathfinder point buy is different than 3e point buy. Epic fantasy is 25, high is 20, and the standard is 15, with low fantasy being 10.

Basic NPCs start with the array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 (which would be a 15 in 3e but works out closer to a 3 point buy in Pathfinder). Only heroic NPC, one with PC class levels, have the 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 which does work out to a 15.

 

[delericho]

Pathfinder point buy is different than 3e point buy. Epic fantasy is 25, high is 20, and the standard is 15, with low fantasy being 10.

Basic NPCs start with the array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 (which would be a 15 in 3e but works out closer to a 3 point buy in Pathfinder). Only heroic NPC, one with PC class levels, have the 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 which does work out to a 15.

Good point. I'd forgotten that the method was (necessarily) different.

 

[Brokenheart]

I can see a level 5 Samwise , he was a good character. I'm designing a campaign (just to take my mind off things, recent death in my family) in which players get to play more 'down-to-earth' characters..in other words..low-level, low ability. Nitty gritty. I'm going for a more Night of the Living Dead or even Evil Dead. Basically, the players get to pick from a variety of "packages" which use only Expert, Warrior, and Aristocrat (although, it's not called Aristocrat). Players can use either a package, or build a character from the ground up. In the campaign world, levels are limited to as high as 5, and abilities as high as 18/20. I tend to see higher abilities as being more potent than high levels. I wanted to base it in as what regular folks would have, not elite soldiers per se. Overall, though, I don't see a level 5 expert with 8-10 intelligence being more powerful than a 3rd level warrior, overall. Of course..low levels, multi-classing, it causes balance issues. Ugh.

I'm trying to find a way to balance it, in that I could develop packages for the players that will be well-balance if one wants to play a soldier, a survivor (survivalist?), jock, nerd, drama-queen....you get the idea. Now, some classes are more skill based, while others are more combat-based. Expert can account for a wide variety, while Warrior can also. I'm also trying to figure out as to what the values mean...strength has a self-explanatory chart. I weigh in at two hundred pounds, and can lift one eighty five up overhead, I weight train 3x a week. That I can explain to the players whom want to figure out how they want to build their characters. Hehehe...a 100 pound cheerleader with 14 str would be interesting...lol.

What does an attack base of 3 represent? 5? Would five represent Olympic level skill at marksmanship or fencing?

 

[Celebrim]

Well, first of all, I think you are generally on the right path, but you aren't really exploring anything new. I'd encourage you to look up essays on "D&D E6", "Gandalf was a 6th level Wizard", and "D&D Calibrating your Expectations". I think you'll find that this has all been covered in some depth.

My game lies somewhere between gritty and high fantasy, with influences from Tolkien, Brothers Grimm, Lovecraft, and Gygax.

There are my assumptions:

1) The PC's have an elite stat array (32 point buy by 3e standards), and virtually no one else in the world has that degree of native capability. In fact, typically the only NPC I ever build with that same point buy is the BBEG. Most NPCs regardless of level or role in the society are assumed to have 15-20 point buy. Only a few NPCs occupying roles of mentor, miniboss, foil, or ally will have 21-25 point by builds.
2) The PC's are advantaged characters having important destinies and most NPCs just don't. In my game, there are 'advantages' and 'disadvantages'. PC's begin with one free advantage that they don't have to pay for. They also begin with a resource called 'destiny points'. Again, generally only the BBEG will be built as a peer of the PCs in this regard.
3) The PC's are advantaged materially compared to NPCs. The PCs begin play with about 4 months wages invested gear that is helpful in heroic situations. Most NPCs can't even save up 4 months wages, and their gear is heavily invested in overcoming mundane challenges (raising a family, running a business, providing themselves shelter and comforts, etc.). This disparity quickly widens as the PC's overcome heroic challenges and acquire resources. Compared to even high level NPCs, the PC's are just walking arsenals. By high level, the PC's will be wearing or carrying the price of a small kingdom in gear - even in a game that is stingy with gear like mine. Spellcasters likewise won't typically memorize spells that prepare them mainly for combat (though many will keep one or two just in case) but which aid with research, or which can be sold easily, or which aid in a craft, or which help them overcome mundane problems like cooking a dinner, staying dry in the rain, or cleaning their domecile.
4) The PC's are generally much younger than NPCs of similar level, as a result of their greater native potential and destiny. Even from a low level, NPCs will be impressed by the PCs - if only as prodigies. Even to the extent that a 6th or 9th level character is not uncommon in the world, those characters will be senior citizens at the ends of their lives, and not youths at the beginning of theirs. Thus, they are really unsuited to the rigors facing the heros. That 6th level wizard or cleric may be in their 60's or 70's, with DEX, CON, and STR well below 8 and having perhaps only 6 h.p. Such NPCs will be amazed to find a vigorous youth of 18 or 25 mastering spells that have taken them a life time of study.
5) The PC's place greater focus on heroic challenges than similar NPCs. Many NPCs will have spent some time in their lives facing heroic obstacles - war, exploration, and adventure. But that has only been one episode in a lengthy life. So even though they might have some PC classes, a good portion of their levels will be in non-NPC classes. That Hedge Wizard or Sage or Court Magician might be 6th or 9th level overall, but 2 or 3 of those levels might be Expert.

In general, this is the expected progression for NPCs

0th level: Children
1st level: Youths, idle pampered rich, handicapped individuals
2nd level: Mature skilled individuals with several years of experience.
3rd level: True experts, often of at least middle age, with decades of experience. Not uncommon, but note the disadvantages compared to PCs, who in many areas will exceed their ability even at 1st level.
4th level: True masters, highly respected in their field or community.
5th level: The leading citizens of a community, and often influential outside of their community.
6th level: Leading citizens nationally, often aged and nearing the ends of their careers. Less than 1 in a 1000 NPCs are of this level. Highest level that probably corresponds to real individuals.
7th-8th level: As 6th, but this are the real movers and shakers at a national level. Some will be known at a regional level.
9th-10th level: People of regional renown, fame, or infamy. Anybody who is any body will have heard of these people at least by rumor. Within their trade, everyone that is an expert in the trade has heard of these people for hundreds of miles around. These peoples names open doors in welcome or slam them in fear. The real world equivalents of these people are legendary or mythical - Miyamoto Musashi, Cyranos de Bergerac, Alexander the Great, etc.
11th level and up: Extremely rare in NPCs. People of world renown.
15th level and up: Only (potentialy) the PCs themselves, the BBEG that directly opposes them, or the few other extant individuals of historical reknown - legendary founding kings, immortal rulers, legendary wizards, noted heirarchs of great religions, etc.

However, just because the PCs are greatly advantaged compared to just about every NPC, doesn't mean that they are necessarily better in everything than ordinary people. Typically, it requires a pretty high level PC to excel an NPC in the tasks of ordinary living.

Consider the very best local village blacksmith, and the PC finds himself with the need to shod a horse or forge a new masterwork weapon.

The village blacksmith is 3rd level, with a 12 Int, maximum ranks in the related craft skills, masterwork tools, an apprentice, and at least 3 feats all of which relate to the ordinary application of his skills. As you note, this means that the blacksmith's craft check could easily be +16. It's highly unlikely that even a high level PC will be able to best that skill unless he set out with the desire to be among his other abilities a master smith. And even if he did, it might be some time before he bests that 6th level smith of regional renown whom every smith in the trade speaks reverantly toward. Likewise if it comes to haggling with a merchant, the average merchant is well equipped in appraisal, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive to come out on top in such affairs. The PCs may be easily able to defeat ordinary people in combat, but they won't necessarily easily be able to take advantage of them and to a certain extent even high level PCs may rely on ordinary people to take care of ordinary affairs in a reliable manner.

So, how to you make your game 'more gritty' or set your campaign in something more like the 'real world'? Well, you set your PC's abilities and expectations closer to those of the NPCs in one or more fashions. Depending on how gritty you wanted to be this could mean lower point buys (21 point by for example), level caps (6, 8, and 10 are popular choices), forcing players to begin play with an NPC class, or reducing the XP rewards from challenges. I would strongly advise that everyone be on board for that before trying to force it on players. And also I suggest that the lower you set the bar for PCs, the rarer you make exceptional NPCs. My discussion above assumes PCs will exceed 6th level. If I didn't assume that, then I might make 1st level characters the standard for mature experienced individuals, and 2nd level the standard of community leaders.

 

[Brokenheart]

I liked your reply, Celebrim, it was a good read. Well, actually, I have explored it quite a bit..I'm just dealing with alot of issues right now, one of which is a loss in my family. I do agree with you, though, 6th would likely be the highest possible level a person could attain. I have actually tested some of my theories, one of which is that by reducing starting defense (or AC) down to 5 (instead of 10) you can actually increase difficulty and curb players from rushing. Also, if one uses a massive damage rule, essentially capping it at ten, adds alot of nitty to the gritty. For example, a character discharges a .10 gauge mossberg on another, scoring a clear hit -- that's around ten damage...average. In reality, if a man hit full in the chest by a blast like that going to survive? It's very highly unlikely. What this does is cause players to be more careful, and to plan their actions a little better. It also makes encounters play out with more tension and excitement. Also, adding DR to armor can effectively resemble
reality in that sense, and make encounters play out with more fun.

My own players love my nitty-gritty campaigns, having burned themselves out on the high-level, high-point, pc class stuff. They think it's a blast to get to play a baseball player knocking aliens upside the head with a bat, or a drama queen screaming and running from zombies. Right now, I'm working on a Night of the Living Dead sort of campaign, basically five to six characters trying to survive in a zombie apocalypse. One player wanted to play a soldier, I said sure..roll up a warrior, try and figure out what you want. He said, "He's going to be thirty five, well-built. He's scarred up. Missing teeth. He's got a busted knee." I said, "Okay, sure. Abilities? Skills?" My player replied, "Umm.. 14 strength, 12 dexterity, 12 endurance, 10 intelligence, and 8 Wisdom and Charisma. He's reckless but tough as nails." Another player wanted a Survivalist, kind of a hybrid between expert and warrior. She assigned abilities as 12 strength/15 dexterity/10 endurance/10 wisdom/8 intelligence/ 8 charisma. Now, she wanted a character that was both warrior and expert--good with a shotgun and a shovel...lol. We rolled up her character and it was no where near either a warrior or expert of her level. (I let them start with at two, three if they gimp it well enough).

She wasn't satisfied, and all in all I could see why. The soldier had more hp, more defense, more damage, better attack and plenty of skill points. So, to be fair, and considering that it's a severely mixed build and her choice of skills/feats/equipment gimped it to no end, I let her take an extra level. This made her character equal to a level 3 warrior but with a few more skill
points/skills. Both had good backstories for their characters, which helped with their additional levels. Essentially, the characters they create are nothing more than well-trained, experienced individuals.

The soldier is gimped by a messed up knee which slows him down, lowers his dexterity, etc. The survivalist is gimped by her limited choice of weapons, armor, and the fact that she spent all her feats on waaaaaaay sub-par choices. Weapon Focus:Shovel, etc.
--
Also, speaking of making it more gritty, since the campaign uses Zombies, I added a "Bite" rule. Fortitude save vs Disease, DC 5-10 plus total damage. Disease incubates for 3-to-10 days, or activates once the character dies or has been killed.

The players start out meeting up at the house, a two story house with a basement and an attic. Zombies are already inside the house, but hidden. They start out with equipment one would expect for such characters. The soldier starts out with a handgun and a kevlar vest, while the survivalist starts out with a shovel, a knife, and a crossbow, basically. Other characters will come into play to fill it out.
--
I also mentioned making and using "packages". I use the term package to describe a pre-made, pre-equipped character complete with a backstory. In this, balance can be assured. Here is an example:

Survivalist:2 Expert/2 Warrior, Maria Brown. A deeply-tanned, rough looking woman wearing a black tank-top, a pair of black bdu's and combat-boots. She stands at 5'10 with long dark hair, a sharpened shovel drooped lazily over her shoulder. A crossbow is strapped across her back, she wears a belt covered in pouches and sheaths. A large knife is strapped on her thigh. At thirty-five, she is a cold, distant woman whom keeps people at arm's length. She's been through abusive relationships, been a victim of crimes, and became fed-up with it as a teenager. She learned to do everything for herself, rely only on herself, to be self-sufficient. A long jagged scar runs from her left brow to her right cheek.

Abilities:12 Str/15-16 Dex/10-12 Con/8 Int/10 Wis/8-6 Cha. (Allowed to substitute 2 points of cha, for two points of con -- neither makes an overly large difference. trades a skill point for a hit point, essentially).

Skills:Stealth, Survival, Nature, Perception, Heal, Profession, Climb, Jump, Swim. 3-5 ranks each. Emphasis on Survival, Nature,
and Stealth.

Hp:21-23.

Attack:3 plus 1 melee/3 plus 3 ranged.

Defense:5 plus 3 plus 2. 10. DR 1.

Feats:*Simple Weapons, Light armor. Weapon Focus:Shovel. Self-Sufficient. Weapon Focus:Crossbow.

Equipment:Armored leather jacket (AC 2). Modified Shovel (1d8, plus traits). Modified Combat knife (1d6, plus traits). Folding knife. Multitool. Belt w'pouches/sheaths (typical goods). Light crossbow (1d8).

Hehe..that is what I think is a nitty-gritty character. She has a rough backstory, but also her skills/feats/abilities are cinch up into it--it all comes together. So far, Maria has been an interesting character to GM for. Hehe..it's interesting to watch people improvise and adapt. It can almost be like watching a movie, in a sense. Maria's character has gone as far as to make improvised
molotovs, cut off a zombie's head on a critical with her shovel, use her shovel's handle to trip (and smash zombie heads), stick one's head into a lamp (dex check). The two players try to work together, and so far it's been very funny. I also allow for the characters to use effects not unlike in real-life to allow them more freedom in gameplay, such as increased accuracy from the crossbow's scope and tripod, a crouched or prone position.

The Soldier's player, Joey, had the fortune to find a baseball bat in the house's closet. He's found....interested ways to modify and improve it. One game session he says, "Mark looks around for anything useful"...mind you he was in a sewing room...just imagine. I replied...foolishly..."There is a scattering of crafting materials. Yarns, threads, cords, needles, magazines, just about anything an old crafter would have laying around." He replies.."Oh okay. I'll try to find things to add a lanyard to the bat, and maybe drive some darning needles through it!" ..... -_- I was like...oh..crap-o-la. I give him a craft check dc 5.. He makes it. Then he says, "Mark looks at his newly made Spiked Swing Bat!!" he goes on to add that if it has a lanyard it should deal more damage, and the needles add piercing. Having used d6 for the bat, it more or less became a "modern" morningstar.. It was...funny.

 

[Celebrim]

I liked your reply, Celebrim, it was a good read.

If you haven't read them, definitely read: "Calibrating your expectations" and "Gandalf was a 6th level wizard". These are two of the best essays of the 3rd edition era, and should be required reading with things like "The Seven Sentence NPC".

I have actually tested some of my theories, one of which is that by reducing starting defense (or AC) down to 5 (instead of 10) you can actually increase difficulty and curb players from rushing.

May I suggest that if you are going to do that, you might consider having a level/class based bonus to AC. There are going to be some balance issues I don't think you are expecting otherwise.

Also, if one uses a massive damage rule, essentially capping it at ten, adds alot of nitty to the gritty.

D20 variants that are going for gritty usually do this. One typical rule is to set the massive damage threshold at Con score, possibly also with having Con add to hit points only at 1st level (to prevent Con from being the single most important stat in the game).

For example, a character discharges a .10 gauge mossberg on another, scoring a clear hit -- that's around ten damage...average.

If you are looking for gritty gun rules, may I suggest searching for Ken Hood's Firearms pdf. While you are at it, it might be informative to acquire a copy of Ken Hood's 'Grim and Gritty' rules set for D20 which gets rid of hit points entirely and instead tracks wounds.

Also, adding DR to armor can effectively resemble reality in that sense, and make encounters play out with more fun.

DR as armor has some pitfalls. If you go with DR as armor, I highly recommend looking into the way the D20 Conan rules handle things.

Also, in general, you might want to consider looking at the D20 Modern framework as the basis of your house rules for a zombie apocalypse type game rather than D&D.

Anyway, my point being is that a lot of the heavy lifting of what you seem to be going for has already been done elsewhere if you know where to look. Depending on your feelings about hit points, you might do something like D20 Modern with Conan RPG rules for armor and Ken Hood's firearm rules, or you might want to just adopt Ken Hood's 'Grim and Gritty' rules entirely.

Also, speaking of making it more gritty, since the campaign uses Zombies, I added a "Bite" rule. Fortitude save vs Disease, DC 5-10 plus total damage. Disease incubates for 3-to-10 days, or activates once the character dies or has been killed.

I guess that depends on the lethality you want. I'd suggest that zombies can only bite if they've successfully entered a grapple and successfully won a grapple check to inflict damage. Typically in my game disease and poisons keep inflicting damage every interval until you've passed two successive Fort saves, and for something like a typical 100% lethal zombie plague I'd have a 1 day interval and a Fort save above that which a player could be expect to survive by luck - say DC 26. Thus, a player that wants to survive getting bit usually needs some sort of extraordinary medical intervention. Or, if the PC does manage two DC 26 fort saves before dying, then you could have that be the campaign changing medical miracle - the character is now immune and a vacine can be produced from the antibodies in his blood potentially saving all of humanity.

Anyway, have fun.

 

[Brokenheart]

Thank you for the reply, Celebrim, I enjoy reading them. You made alot of good points and I will try and include them all. Lol..my players like a rough and tough campaign, the more difficult the better. Although, I think the most fun I've had with it over the years, is modeling characters and npcs...no idea why, but it's alot of fun. I'll post some info on my campaign world, though..I'm thinking it needs a new name. Maybe Big Mess...lol. Also, I'll go and read all the articles you mentioned, if I can find them.

 

[Cadence]

Hey all,
I've been reading through the SRDs looking at varous npcs and pcs, and thinking to myself...how do real life folks measure up? What if I want to design a campaign without the over-the-top heroic stuff and have it more nitty-gritty, forcing the players to be more strategic and think more..rather than just rush in. How would a real life soldier, doctor, or carpenter measure up in terms of levels and abilities? I've read several articles, including the Alexandrian.

I assume this one of the ones you read over at the Alexandrian? Just ran into it earlier today and really liked it.

I was looking for something like this and am just going with an E6 system for PF. It doesn't require as much of a fundamental rule change as some of the other ideas (changing damage, changing ac, whatnot). I've got a beta version of my basic E6 for PF rules over at http://p6codex.com/ .

Any good readings, or decisions on how you're going to add grit since March?