Mortality Radio # 30: Ed Stark interview available...

[JRRNeiklot]

The role that 3E designers envisioned for the Ranger is that of a survivalist and scout. His spells and skills and hefty hit dice and BAB ensure that he is not weak on his own, and his role is that of recon, not master combatant.

From what I gather in your post, you seem to see the Ranger as a lightly armed and armored version of the fighter. You apparently see him as supposed to be the equal of the fighter, just more versatile in combat that he currently is, but essentially the same. Am I incorrect here? If so, then the view that most players have of the Ranger is quite different from the role you want him to fulfill.

No, I don't expect the ranger to equal the fighter in combat. He should be a decent fighter, second only to the fighter and maybe the paladin as well. I want him to be the survivalist and scout, as you say above. But I don't want to see him forced into any combat style, be it archery, twf, two handed fighting or projectile vomiting. I don't want to see ANY feats forced upon him, except for track. The ranger is a master of versatility and this should show in his fighting stle as well. I.E., either no style feats, or enough choices that he can cover just about all possible styles someone wants to choose for their ranger. A choice between archery and twf is no improvement over just twf as it stands now.

You seem to think I want MORE for the ranger. I don't. I want them to get rid of the free feats archery/twf feats they are giving him. All rangers should not have to be archers or Drizzt clones. Get rid of that crap and maybe expand the spell list a bit (no I'm not talking about magic missiles or fireballs) and the ranger will be fine. Straightjacketing him into certain combat styles sucks.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by JRRNeiklot:

No, I don't expect the ranger to equal the fighter in combat. He should be a decent fighter, second only to the fighter and maybe the paladin as well. I want him to be the survivalist and scout, as you say above. But I don't want to see him forced into any combat style, be it archery, twf, two handed fighting or projectile vomiting. I don't want to see ANY feats forced upon him, except for track. The ranger is a master of versatility and this should show in his fighting stle as well. I.E., either no style feats, or enough choices that he can cover just about all possible styles someone wants to choose for their ranger. A choice between archery and twf is no improvement over just twf as it stands now.

The more I've thought about it, the more I'm inclined to agree with you. Go all the way (that is logical for a ranger) or not at all.

Half measures are worse... but I guess that's what house rules are for.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Steverooo]

If you're saying you won't buy the book just because you don't like the new ranger, they surely can do without you money. I'm sure amongst those who don't like the ranger either, there are enough who won't make their decision whether to buy the book just on that little fact, cause it's only a very small part of the changes.

Oh, I don't know... I bought the 2e PHB, MM, and DMG, tried their Ranger, hated it, and never bought another 2e book until 3e came out, but that's just me.

 

[Steverooo]

This, I like.

This one is always controversial - I don't know if a PrC could be used to satisfy everyone.

Isn't Intuit Direction a ranger class skill?

Except for the weather forecasting, everything else is covered by Wilderness Lore.

Glad you like the "select your own Feats" idea. (I do, too!)

Spellslinger or Spell-less can BOTH be covered by the Ranger Class, WITHOUT a Prestige Class needed! There are two different methods for doing this!

Yes, Intuit Direction is a 3e Ranger skill, but that's not the point. Rumour has it that 3.5e's Survival skill will incorporate direction-finding, just as 3e's Wilderness Lore includes not getting lost. This rumour may or may not be true.

::Sigh!:: Again, with missing the point, (P)SH... A Ranger SHOULD be able to set various sorts of traps (snares, pits, spiked pits, deadfalls, (spiked) limb traps, etc). WL allows them to find food and water in the wild. Nowhere does it allow them the ability to set traps (try asking your GM to allow you to do this, next game - I've had GMs tell me no), nor to identify plants or animals (I've had GMs tell me Knowledge (Nature) was required for this), nor identify water quality, nor start fires without flint & steel or other tools, nor build shelters (I've had GMs tell me this required a Craft check)!

SO, what I'm saying is, let's state that the Ranger can set traps with DC 20 or less (Rogues also get to set higher level ones), and give rules for that. Let's add a few lines to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival that state that Knowledge (Nature) is an Academic skill, and that Survival includes all aspects of it, from a practical standpoint. In other words, you may not know that this plant is Assea Aranion without Knowledge (Nature), but you would know that it is not edible, poisonous, nor good for making rope. Profession (Herbalist) or Knowledge (Nature) would let you know that it is useful in healing the Black Breath.

Also, WL/Survival should allow you to tell water quality, and purify bad water. It should also explicitly state that it allows firestarting and shelterbuilding without tools, identification of tracks and "scat" to tell what types of creatures have been in the local area, and yes, even predict the weather!

It should also provide DCs for ALL of the above, and some guidelines on time!

This is as easy as pie, folks, even if you're not a Boyscout! The work was already done in 2e, except for the DCs part! Just assign them. Mine look something like this:

==============================================


Additional Uses for Wilderness Lore: DC:
To determine which types of creatures are within a mile (by tracks, scat, etc.): 15
To identify an animal (Knowledge (Nature) can also be used):10 + Rarity + Terrain Modifiers
To identify a magical beast: 15 + Rarity + Terrain Modifiers
To identify a normal plant and its usefulness (Knowledge (Nature) can also be used):
10 + Rarity + Terrain Modifiers
To recognize a plant monster and its danger: 15 + Rarity + Terrain Modifiers
To determine the purity of water: 10
To purify bad water: 10
To leave/recognize trail signs (made to be recognized): 2
To accurately predict the weather: 0, +1/hour in advance
To start a fire (without aids): 15
To build a simple, weatherproof structure (leanto, etc.): 15
To camouflage something (the Hide skill can also be used): 15
To build a simple deadfall, pit, or snare trap (DC <= 20): 10

==============================================

See what I mean?

 

[Steverooo]

If I take 8 levels of Ranger, I am a master of independent survival and scouting. I can survive, unaided, on my own, in any hazardous setting, without magical aid or the aid of my companions. I can recon, follow, evade, and be warned, and even have companionship without the assistance of others. I can self-heal, and I can endure hostile elements. I cannot be the melee master of all I survey, because my talents are not in that direction. I am a survivalist, but I am not a master of survival at combat. That is the job of another.

The role that 3E designers envisioned for the Ranger is that of a survivalist and scout. His spells and skills and hefty hit dice and BAB ensure that he is not weak on his own, and his role is that of recon, not master combatant.

If you take eight levels of Ranger, you may or may not be a master survivor or scout... It depends, entirely, upon the skills you take. You have no class abilities to help either. Same with the other abilities listed. You can only self-heal if your Wisdom is 14+ (otherwise, it's still two levels away).

Again, as either Survivalist or Scout, the Ranger has no class abilities to aid him. The same is true for the Rogue, as far as stealth goes, but not for traps, for instance, where he has several bonuses (DC:20+, and Uncanny Dodge DEX Bonus to AC vs. Traps), not to mention several in-combat abilities.

Nope, get rid of the two "Combat Paths", and give Bonus Feats from a selected list, instead. Put the Archery & TWF Feats on there, and Rangers' Players will take the ones they want. Add Point Blank Shot and all its Sub-Feats for missile shooters and throwers. Add Mounted Combat and its Sub-Feats. Add Improved Unarmed Strike, all its Sub-Feats, and some animal fighting styles for the Tarzan/Beastmaster crowd. Add a few Feats for the Two-handed and Sword & Board fighters (Weapon Specialization in an axe, bow, club, dagger/knife, spear, sword, trident, for instance), the "Saves" path (Iron Will, etc.), and something for the Spellslingers, and a "Trade the Spells Away" option for those who want a spell-less woodsman.

Now, you have a versatile, adaptable (but still bland and flavourless) Ranger who can occupy the Aragorn slot, the Robinhood slot, the Tarzan or Beastmaster slot, and also fight with a two-handed weapon from Rhino-back, if he wants to! He can be magically powerful, or spell-less, as the player likes. He is FLEXIBLE, adaptable, and versatile. He gives CHOICES, not RESTRICTIONS!

Now give him some special class abilities that make him better at surviving in the wild than a Cosmopolitan Fighter with Survival skill, and some FLAVORFUL abilities, and you've got the world-travelling Ranger class that people will not only play, but also stop complaining about!

A choice between two pre-chosen combat paths (and with spells) just aint a'gonna cut it!

 

[Steverooo]

PS

And while we're at it, Rangers need Knowledge (Geography) and Balance (used not just for trees and cliffs, but also for crossing ice and snow) as class skills, too.

Then again, it has been SAID that all 3.5e classes will have some sort of Knowledge skill as a class skill (Fighters probably Knowledge (History), as it covers wars, Druids K(Nature), Clerics K(Religion), etc.). Again, this may or may not prove to be true.

Also, I favour giving ALL Classes Bonus Feats from a selected list at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, just like the Wizard now gets, and including some Class-Only Feats, such as the Fighter's Weapon Specialization, the Wizard's Spell Mastery, the Rogue's Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike, etc. Ranger-Only Feats (some sharable with Druids and Barbarians) could include the ability to predict the weather a day in advance, without error, affinities with certain types of animals, and other such Non-combat scouting or survivalist Feats.

Okay, now somebody tell me WHY this idea is bad!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Rangers DO NOT get animal companions!!! They get the Animal Friendship spell at 7th level (4th, with high Wisodm). Only Druids get animal companions.

Unless, of course, Rangers wisely choose from their class skills Animal Empathy and Animal Handling... then they can train their own animal companions quite handily. A starting 1st level ranger could easily be given a trained animal as a companion without any strain on credibility.

In fact, an ranger who wishes to invest a few skill points will soon find that Animal Handling is much better for him than the animal friendship spell (especially at *his* caster level!)

Cheers

 

[Henry]

If you take eight levels of Ranger, you may or may not be a master survivor or scout... It depends, entirely, upon the skills you take. You have no class abilities to help either. Same with the other abilities listed. You can only self-heal if your Wisdom is 14+ (otherwise, it's still two levels away).

The skills to take are in the class skills of the ranger: Wilderness lore, spot, listen, hide, and move silently - all of which a ranger can get now, and will be able to hone them up even more in the revision.


And the Ranger gets NO class abilities - what about the Spells?


All the abilities I mentioned come from spells, which is a major class ability for the Ranger. Alarm, Animal Friendship, Endure elements, pass without trace, speak with animals - ALL of these are 1st level spells, and available to the ranger as early as 4th level. It requires a 12 Wisdom for a ranger to have, which is not unobtainable by any means - even 25 point buy will get a PC that score available for wisdom.

As for healing, while it is true it requires a ranger to have a slightly higher wisdom to have them at that level, the fact reamins they can have it, and they WILL have it by 10th. It doesn't change the bulk of his other self-sufficiency by 4th level, well in place by 8th.

I have to say however, that your ideas are actually similar to mine, except that I kept it as sets of feat 'paths', and added a set of feats for single-weapon focus & expertise, too. ("Path of the Serpent.")

If there is one thing they can do, it would be to cement the spellcasting a little more, and make sure that he is self-sufficient by 6th level or so, instead of 10th, and maybe put cure light wounds in the 1st level range, if they want him on his own more, as a scout should.

Now give him some special class abilities that make him better at surviving in the wild than a Cosmopolitan Fighter with Survival skill, and some FLAVORFUL abilities, and you've got the world-travelling Ranger class that people will not only play, but also stop complaining about!

It'll never happen - no matter if the Ranger is given the abilities of a demigod, someone will always have something to complain about. ("What do you mean my Ranger can't summon Tarrasques by whistling through his nose!? UNFAIR!!!")

 

[bret]

All the abilities I mentioned come from spells, which is a major class ability for the Ranger. Alarm, Animal Friendship, Endure elements, pass without trace, speak with animals - ALL of these are 1st level spells, and available to the ranger as early as 4th level.

The Ranger doesn't get Endure Elements.

Personally, I think this is a mistake. The 24 hour Endure Elements is in many cases better than that short duration Resist Elements that they do get. That is a different discussion.

In 3e, the Ranger is one of the few spellcasters who gets Resist and Protection from Elements, but not Endure Elements.

 

[Henry]

The Ranger doesn't get Endure Elements.

I'll be two-weapon whipped!

I've been mentally glossing over that for about a year now!

Thanks for the catch!

I think it ought to be a mistake, too. It makes little sense to give Rangers one but not the other. I hope that's one of the things that is changed, because the image of a ranger freezing his... err, butt... off on top of a frozen mountain range is not quite the image of "wilderness survivor" I'm pretty sure they wanted.

Huh.