Most broken prestige classes?

[Felix]

D00d. Dungeon. Monster. Kill. Stuff. Take.

Dungeons. And. Dragons.
Game.

I'm getting Bad-Wrong-Funned by hong? How embarassing.

The bottom line here is, you're talking about a restriction on conceptual options for a character as compensation mechanical benefits, and hearkening at least as far back as the 1e cavalier, that's just never a good thing.

The cavalier did not specalize in healing and undead-fighting; these two specialties don't steal the thunder of other PCs: healing allows them to keep doing whatever it is they do, and turning makes undead easier for the party to handle and allows the RSoP to shine in a non-support, but ultimately situational and DM controlled, role. There is a difference between this and the cavalier, is there not?

Like NilesB noted, the Sun domain's granted power won't come into play much. The Healing domain frankly stinks, unless you really dig the role-playing aspect of being a healer.

So the thankless and why-doesn't-anyone-want-to-play-a-cleric role of party healer is now more attractive.

This is a good thing.

 

[hong]

I'm getting Bad-Wrong-Funned by hong? How embarassing.

Insert rollplayer comment here.

 

[Particle_Man]

The campaigns I am in are more gamist, I guess.

Character creation goes like this:

"We need a healer."

"Ok, I'll take a Cleric with a Healing Domain, to be better at it." (Note carefully how the Healing Domain is seen as valuable, since it helps with the cleric's primary function)

"Hey look at this prestige class! It lets you be better at healing, at no serious cost."

"Ok, Cleric of...Pelor...NG...and working towards Radiant Servant of Pelor."

This happens a lot in my gamist campaign, and I bet, since many campaigns are gamist, it happens a lot in other campaigns. And thus the roleplaying restrictions are meaningless in those campaigns, as are the skill point allocations (the party has the "skill guy"; he is called the Rogue). Thus the prestige class simply out clerics the cleric, in the cleric's primary gamist role as "the healer/undead turner", in gamist campaigns.

The one exception to this conversation I encountered in the gamist campaign was the guy who went for the Sentinel of Barai from BoED because he wanted to turn into a Bear.

But in no case does the cleric remain a cleric to level 20. There is simply no mechanical reason to.

 

[Felix]

But in no case does the cleric remain a cleric to level 20. There is simply no mechanical reason to.

With a PrC that continues turning, quite right.

Less of a problem with the PrC than the cleric base class. Not that I think it's much of a problem.

The campaigns I am in are more gamist, I guess.

Character creation goes like this:

"We need a healer."

"Ok, I'll take a Cleric with a Healing Domain, to be better at it."

Heh, my group's character creation looks more like:

"We need a healer."

...

...

"Guys, we really do need a healer."

"Playing a cleric sucks..."

"I've already got a cool backstory worked out for my Barbarian."

"Ugh, look: my ranger has CLW on his spell list so keep me stocked with wands and we'll be fine."

---

Not that this comments upon the RSoP, but I've noticed a profound lack of desire to play clerics in my groups.

 

[hong]

The cavalier did not specalize in healing and undead-fighting; these two specialties don't steal the thunder of other PCs:

By this logic, a PrC for wizards that doubles meteor swarm damage is okay, because hey, nobody else casts meteor swarms.

 

[Felix]

By this logic, a PrC for wizards that doubles meteor swarm damage is okay, because hey, nobody else casts meteor swarms.

The cavalier offered mechanical advantages allowing him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Wizard PrC that doubles meteor sward damage allows him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows other PCs to go out and kill things more easily.

A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone, though those undead likely wouldn't have proven much of a challenge since they qualify for getting destroyed, as NilesB argues.

Note the subtle differences.

 

[hong]

A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows other PCs to go out and kill things more easily.

Somehow, I suspect this is not going to make people who think clerics are boring change their mind.

A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone, though those undead likely wouldn't have proven much of a challenge since they qualify for getting destroyed, as NilesB argues.

Ditto.

 

[jasin]

The cavalier offered mechanical advantages allowing him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Wizard PrC that doubles meteor sward damage allows him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows other PCs to go out and kill things more easily.

Actually, this is the best argument for the RSoP not being overpowered that I've seen. This is why the bard is considered weak, despite the huge boost the party can get from bardic music: by most people's scale, an ability that lets someone else deal +110 damage isn't quite as powerful as an ability that lets you deal +100 damage.

However...

A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone,

... it is my opinion that clerics don't need to be thrown a bone. They're useful for the whole party, powerful personally and fun to play, at least for some people. And I don't think just boosting the class all the way until even people who don't like the concept want to play it for the goodies is a valid design principle.

But a big part of my problem with the RSoP is that it further specializes in two of the cleric's deafault specialties. The loremaster is a bit of a something-for-nothing class too, but it slips under the rader easier because at least it boosts the wizard's secondary area of expertise, not his primary one. RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.

 

[Someone]

RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.

¿Did you check the last two "secrets"?

 

[Cyronax]

But a big part of my problem with the RSoP is that it further specializes in two of the cleric's deafault specialties. The loremaster is a bit of a something-for-nothing class too, but it slips under the rader easier because at least it boosts the wizard's secondary area of expertise, not his primary one. RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.

I'm glad someone else agrees with this! I always thought the loremaster was a bad example of a PrC for the DMG. By all accounts in 3E/3.5E design, PrCs are supposed 'unlock' abilities that can't be managed through normal multi-classing as well as adding some mechanical flavor and variety to a world. The DM of course is supposed to provide the roleplay aspect of the flavor of a the eliteness of a PrC.

I hate what's happened with PrCs in general, but these opinions have been aired many times across the internet I'm sure.

I hope that any future editions of D&D refine their initial offerings of PrCs, because the DMG's are piss poor as a guide for custom PrCs. Loremasters is very simple for a wizard to get, but hard for others.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil by contrast has very niche requirements, and definetely gives a lot of power to its members. I'd rather go with this model of PrC then the RSoP or the loremaster. Most of my campaigns follow on with this type, which makes culling PrCs into a list of availability a fun chore to do.

End rant -- D&D's all about options and at least 3E has given us a lot of that. Rule 0 ... yadda yadda.

Oh, and to rebut Felix -- you're wrong in every point you make, and I won't cite posts or even make a cogent argument to back this statement up. Colbert Report logic? Yes.

Nice reference to Vek Mormont though, he really was a great character.

C.I.D.