Most broken prestige classes?

[Felix]

...I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it...

Would you please cite the rules to which you refer to as supporting your argument, or cite the post numbers in which you do so.

...

Hey, Cy!

 

[Cyronax]

Hey, Cy!

Hey yourself Felix. Long time no see. You've racked up quite a lot of messages.

As an aside, I'm playing a TN human barbarian/cleric of Olidammara (with the Celerity domain and soon Divine Vigor -- insane natural speed + spells + feats) through Living Greyhawk (you ever want to try LG Felix?). Anyway, looking at this build, I am extremely short of PrC options. Why has the rainbow servant and the radiant servant of Pelor sucked up all this fury. The true crime is the lack of effective cleric type PrCs for off the wall divine caster types.

Maybe I should have just made him an elf and could have taken a few levels in wildrunner.

Oh well. More on topic.......

Speaking of other broken prestige classes (and on the weak side of the spectrum),

I always thought the lack of a spell progression really made the Hierophant (3.5 DMG) a very ugly choice for players. I don't know if it deserves a full spell progression, but the Archmage by contrast seems pretty powerful. Both the High Arcana and the Hiero's Special Ability seem equal in power.

Thoughts??

C.I.D.

 

[Felon]

Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, once you've met the requisites than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?

Well, I'd say I already addressed that question back in the very first post of mine that you replied to. Some base classes have only one class feature that improves with level progression, so they have little to trade off. If a prestige class adds a new suite of features without subtracting from the one primary feature, then it's a net gain. Arcane-oriented PrC's are particularly known for this, because you can't make a wizard's hit dice, BAB, skill points, or saves any worse than they already are without killing the bugger.

So, to be sure, the radiant servant is not the sole culprit. But it is a culprit, and in some ways (that have been mentioned ad nauseum) it's a pretty outstanding instance of one.

 

[Someone]

Well, I'd say I already addressed that question back in the very first post of mine that you replied to. Some base classes have only one class feature that improves with level progression, so they have little to trade off.

I'm very sorry, but I can't just believe you just said that. I can't frigging believe you just said that.

If a prestige class adds a new suite of features without subtracting from the one primary feature, then it's a net gain.

A net gain would be if A-B>0, being A the PrC benefits and B the features lost. B=0 it's just an example. Have I even disagreed with it? That doesn't make the class broken, because there are other balancing mechanisms.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I always thought the lack of a spell progression really made the Hierophant (3.5 DMG) a very ugly choice for players. I don't know if it deserves a full spell progression, but the Archmage by contrast seems pretty powerful. Both the High Arcana and the Hiero's Special Ability seem equal in power.
C.I.D.

I do not likethe Heirophant, as their abilities are on apr with or slightly weaker tahn the wizard's but htey get no new spells.

Of course I consider it a grand addition after 20th level, when caster progression is already at 20th and cannot improve more. Getting 5 epic feats in a row cannot be bad.

 

[Felon]

Losing a good Will save seems nonsensical. Reducing Fortitude would be problematic for an undead slaying class. You can't go below 2+Int skill points a level. Poor BAB would interfere with undead slaying, and would be a double whammy for a PrC for a medium BAB class. Their skill list is already smaller than the cleric's list. Reducing turn undead ability would be... stupid beyond words.

Well, reducing BAB would work. The class focuses on destroying undead with massive quantities positive energy. Reducing Fort save works as well (the whole point of trading some element down is that it's "problematic").

 

[Felon]

I'm very sorry, but I can't just believe you just said that. I can't frigging believe you just said that.

Mm-kay.

A net gain would be if A-B>0, being A the PrC benefits and B the features lost. B=0 it's just an example. Have I even disagreed with it? That doesn't make the class broken, because there are other balancing mechanisms.

Looking back at my original post and the subsequent dialogue, I don't see me using the term "broken" anywhere, or making that big a deal out of the RSoP to begin with. Most of it had to do with the evaluation of the tempest PrC.

The RSoP gains a lot, sacrifices little, and gets MWP for no apparent reason, when virtually no other PrC offers a weapon proficiency upgrade (it happens to be something many players covet for various builds, like getting an elven scout scimitar proficiency before he becomes a dervish).

 

[Felix]

The RSoP gains a lot,

The RSoP gains:

Greater Turning 3+CHA times per day

Turning is a situational ability governable by the DM; it will be more or less useful depending upon how often undead are encountered.​

Radiance, doubling the area of all [Light] spells.

It's a flavorful ability, but not terribly powerful.​

Divine Health.

Like Radiance, it's flavorful (with god of Healing), and is useful (especially vs Mummys) but isn't terribly powerful either.​

Empower Healing.

Meh. It's only if you have the Healing Domain and only if you prepare a Healing spell as a domain spell, Slaved's argument notwithstanding.​

Aura of Warding.

Nice ability. At 3rd level (min char level 9) it's the best ability so far. All near him gain it.​

Bonus Domain.

Nice ability. Class level 5, Min character level 11​

Maximize Healing.

Meh. It's only if you have the Healing Domain and only if you prepare a Healing spell as a domain spell, Slaved's argument notwithstanding.​

Positive Energy Burst.

Only effective against Undead.​

Supreme Healing.

Meh. See above.​

All of the abilities above which are not defensive in nature (and therefore will generally be slightly more powerful than equivalent offensive abilities) or only useful against undead (the usefulness of which will therefore be determined by the DM) were Bolded. Take a look.

...

Only Radiance was bolded, and that because I really couldn't say that it is much of a defensive ability. The RSoP does not gain much on the Cleric that is not versus undead or healing.

sacrifices little,

A Cleric built to become a RSoP is constrained to:

Extra Turning, 5 ranks Heal, 9 ranks Know(religion)

You may say this is not much of a sacrifice since a lot of clerics will take them anyway, but a RSoP does not even have the option not to take them​

Sun domain

Healing Domain

But only if he wants to be able to take advantage of his Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing abilities, Slaved's evidence pending​

A Cleric built to become a RSoP sacrifices:

d8 hit die for a d6.

Lawful Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral
Lawful Evil
Neutral Evil
Chaotic Evil

Worshipping:

Bahmut
Boccob
Corellon Larethian
Ehlonna
Erythnul
Fharlanghn
Garl Glittergold
Gruumsh
Heironeous
Hextor
Kord
Kurtulmak
Lolth
Moradin
Nerull
Obad-Hai
Olidammara
St. Cuthbert
Tiamat
Vecna
Wee Jas
Yondalla​

If these last two arn't some of the absolute harshest pre-requisites I've ever seen, I'll eat my hat. You have no kind of option but to be a Neutral Good Pelorian. This is about as narrow a demographic as I've ever seen.

As I said earlier, the only thing a RSoP gains over a single-classed cleric is effectiveness versus undead and healing. It is entirely appropriate that Pelorian cleric be more effective than other clerics at fighting undead and healing. Nor is it disrupting since the degree to which undead are present are out of the PC's hands, and I have never, ever even heard of groups complaining about too much healing.

Oh, and the RSoP can't become Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, or True Neutral at the penalty of complete and total PrC ability loss, even though Pelor does have clerics of those alignments.

and gets MWP for no apparent reason,

Agreed; this is odd. Meh.

 

[Caliban]

The RSoP gains:


Only Radiance was bolded, and that because I really couldn't say that it is much of a defensive ability. The RSoP does not gain much on the Cleric that is not versus undead or healing.

Greater Turning isn't offensive? Your analysis seems somewhat biased.

 

[Particle_Man]

Oh, and the RSoP can't become Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, or True Neutral at the penalty of complete and total PrC ability loss, even though Pelor does have clerics of those alignments.

Actually, a Cleric of a good god like Pelor cannot be True Neutral, since a cleric cannot be True Neutral unless their God is. [/nitpick]