Most broken prestige classes?

[NilesB]

Unfortunately those citations are at best implying what some here are stating as pure fact.

As opposed to your side which has at best unbacked assertions that create logical inconsistencies in the rules and are repeatedly implied to be false?

 

[Someone]

A fairly obtuse response

That's rich coming from you.

as I did not merely suggest "they're not the same", I said you'd made an outright flawed analogy.

No, it's not, as you would understand if you tried to understanb the argument better. Then you may would be able to the plank in your eye. The argument repeated by the Radiant servant's bashers is that once you have all the requisites there's no reason not to take the class. And I seriously believe that once you have the requisites is better to go into tempest than continuing adquiring fighter levels.

The point does not stand. The point has in fact been dismantled, with reasons I clearly laid out. The RSoP retains the cleric's primary class feature (spellcasting progression), while the Tempest does not retain the fighter's primary class feature (bonus feats).

You dismantled nothing: those reasons are nothing but a big fat red herring. If a tempest lose 2 and a half feats compared to a fighter means nothing when he gets better skills and gains class abilities worth of 5 or more feats. The fact that all tempest will have Spring attack and by you Spring attack is worth for TWFers isn't relevant at all, because Spring attack belongs to the class' requisites

But if you have a problem with the Tempest analogy, I have others for you: by the Radiant servant is cleric+ crowd, the arcane trickster is better wizard than the wizard, because once you have the requisites arcane trickster offers a ton of benefits in exchange for two bonus feats. The Mystic theurge is better wizard than the wiard because once you have the requisites is a no brainer to take Mystic theurge instead of Wizard levels. The archmage is better wizard than the wizard because once you have the requisites Archmage gets additional features. The divine oracle is a better cleric than the cleric because once you have the requisites the divine oracle has the cleric's spellcasting progression and additional features.

If you are tempted to discuss the power of builds of those classes, please don't. It's not what the argument is about.

the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.

Yeah, martial weapon proficiencies is so broken compared to, say, Deathless Frenzy, that is no surprise that Radiant servants always end in "most broken prestige classes threads". True that it's abit strange, but it's a bit laughable to see people tearing his hair off because of that.

 

[Slaved]

As opposed to your side which ...

...works so long as you read my posts.

I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it. This still looks to be true. There are some rules that are written which make the situation very strange indeed but still a serious lack of calling for that slot specifically. So right now we have one side with rules backing that leads to situations that are probably not intended vs another side with possibly implied rules but with a result that makes some people feel better. I would prefer a solid rules basis for the rules forum personally, even if it leads to some parts of the system being very strange. although I would likely use the other in my game. If pointing out a rules problem makes it go to errata someday I will be happy.

 

[Felon]

That's rich coming from you.

How so? I have kept my posts relevant to stating straightforward logic and simple facts, whereas you are doing what so many internet posters try to do, which is skate by on attitude and snarkyness.

And I seriously believe that once you have the requisites is better to go into tempest than continuing adquiring fighter levels.

Again, I will get knee-deep into specifics and then wait to see if the ante will be met. The tempest provides a nice PrC for the likes of rogues and scouts that dip into fighter for a level or two, as they lend themselves to "stick-and-move" tactics that make use of spring-attacking and tumbling away. But that diehard 2WFer isn't a rogue or scout. He's about unleashing full-round attacks, taking no more than a 5-foot step if at all possible, which means he's got every reason to be wearing heavy armor (or medium if he can get mithral plate) and thus little use for Spring Attack or Tumble. He does not need two-weapon versatility either, as he's using a double-weapon, or two bastard swords or waraxes (or dealt with it some other way). Ambidexterity is definitely appealing, and would be a must-have if compacted into a smaller level sink, but four levels to eliminate a -2 penalty rubs away the luster.

But if you have a problem with the Tempest analogy, I have others for you: by the Radiant servant is cleric+ crowd, the arcane trickster is better wizard than the wizard, because once you have the requisites arcane trickster offers a ton of benefits in exchange for two bonus feats. The Mystic theurge is better wizard than the wiard because once you have the requisites is a no brainer to take Mystic theurge instead of Wizard levels. The archmage is better wizard than the wizard because once you have the requisites Archmage gets additional features. The divine oracle is a better cleric than the cleric because once you have the requisites the divine oracle has the cleric's spellcasting progression and additional features. Again, simple, manifest logic.

If you are tempted to discuss the power of builds of those classes, please don't. It's not what the argument is about.

This comes across as "here are a bunch of vague generalizations. If you're tempted to point out the holes in these generalizations, please don't because it's not relevant". If you don't want your assertions rebutted, then don't make them. If you don't think challenging the accuracy of your assertions is relevant, then the assertions weren't relevant in the first place. Again, simple, manifest logic.

 

[Umbran]

That's rich coming from you.

I imagine that, in the heat of the moment, you may be tempted to forget that we ask you to keep things civil around here, that The Rules ask you to not get personal and insulting, or use language Grandma wouldn't like (even if it is caught bythe filter).

Don't give in to temptation. That goes for everyone here.

 

[Cyronax]

The discussion about the Rainbow Servant has gotten me thinking. I am starting to come around to the idea that a significant portion of the cleric's (and druid's) balance is a fairly limited set of spells available to them. Since they can prep anything off their class lists, any additions to that list have to be weighed particularly carefully.
I'm discovering this in a game I'm running because the addition of Complete Spell Compendium has significantly ratched up the power of the cleric in the party. I'm tempted to say that the cleric's or druid's spell list is fixed at a certain number of spells - the number in the PH. Any additions from other sources must be met with reductions from that list.
If you use a game with the Rainbow Servant, you might want to consider doing that as well.

I got around divine spellcasters ability to choose any spell from any source at any time by implementing the following house rule. Its worked exceedingly well, and it gives the divine spellcasters something they sorely lack: spell choice individualism. (see my web page for more details).

Divine Spellcasters: The spell lists of divine casters are limited to those presented in PH and a number of spells per spell level equal to the character’s permanent Wisdom modifier. These spells must be approved by me first, and once chosen are considered fixed. These additional non-core spells can be swapped out for new ones every time a divine spellcaster gains access to a new spell level.

C.I.D.

 

[Someone]

How so? I have kept my posts relevant to stating straightforward logic and simple facts, whereas you are doing what so many internet posters try to do, which is skate by on attitude and snarkyness.

Absolutely not. You stubbornly refuse to discuss or even acknowledge the argument; instead, forget it (I don't know if deliberately of because you don't understand it) and proceed to discuss if the analogies presented are perfect or not and calling people names.

This comes across as "here are a bunch of vague generalizations. If you're tempted to point out the holes in these generalizations, please don't because it's not relevant". If you don't want your assertions rebutted, then don't make them. If you don't think challenging the accuracy of your assertions is relevant, then the assertions weren't relevant in the first place. Again, simple, manifest logic.

Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, once you've met the requisites than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?

 

[Mistwell]

Oh, and mistwell, I disagree with your assessment given your lack of proof.

Forgive me, but that was a non-responsive response.

Here is what I wrote:

By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell. Why? Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.

However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions. You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.

All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot. The wording in the glossary does as well. And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well. And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.

If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.

Do you have a response? If not, that's okay. It's not like I think what I wrote is particularly brilliant or anything. But grouping that whole statement and saying "I disagree because you have no proof" isn't really a response to what I said.

You then go on to say:

...works so long as you read my posts.

I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it. This still looks to be true. There are some rules that are written which make the situation very strange indeed but still a serious lack of calling for that slot specifically. So right now we have one side with rules backing that leads to situations that are probably not intended vs another side with possibly implied rules but with a result that makes some people feel better. I would prefer a solid rules basis for the rules forum personally, even if it leads to some parts of the system being very strange. although I would likely use the other in my game. If pointing out a rules problem makes it go to errata someday I will be happy.

We've read your posts. We've responded, in detail, to your posts. Nobody has ignored or misinterpreted your posts that I am aware of.

We have in response asked you to clarify these rules you say you have pointed out that support your side, and you have not responded directly to that request.

We have offered our own citation to rules, and you have not responded directly but repeated the claim that we lacked proof.

We have offered our own analysis and contentions that would tend to contradict your position, like the one above in this post, and you have not responded directly.

At this point, I am not sure where we can go with this. If we respond, and you don't respond in kind but instead repeat a statement that doesn't directly address what you seem to be responding to, what else can we do?

We've listed the rules that support our side, and asked for you to cite any rules that support your side. Please do so. We've also offered analysis that contradicts your position. Please explain why our analysis is flawed in your opinion.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, once you've met the requisites than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?

Well, allow me to jump in and get flamed

Someone, the problem I see with yoru argument is that you are looking at whatthe calss gets when compared to a straight archtypical charcter of the same general abilities. Radiant Servant--CLeric etc. While that is one way to compare, I think you need to take more into account, namely the prerequisites of that prestige class, and what it has cost you versus the benefits of the standard class.

How about archmage, which you brought up.
Spell focus (2 schools)
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
15 ranks in spellcraft and Know-Arcane.
One feat you would have gotten from 5 wizard levels

So we have three weak feats and the 15 ranks is heavy, but arguable. Personally I rarely go that high, and tend to top out at about 10+ modifiers.

YMMV, but I consider this four wasted feats and 10 wasted skill points to enter the class.

In return you get normal BAB, HP, skills and Saves, so no problem or benefit there.

And you get five special abilities. Spell power is not very good, so let's look at Mastery of Energy, Mastery of Shaping and the Spell-like abilities.

Mastery of energy is nice, maybe even great. But bythis level the Wizard's best spells have nothing to do with hit point damage anyway, or are force/disintigration realted anyway. Generally I have found that with Energy Sub:Sonic, I have no real problems with energy resistances, and if I go fire with Searing Heat from Sandstorm, I can laugh at Fire resistance, and even immunity is not too bad.

But for argument I will say it is worth 1-1.5 feats.

Mastery of Shaping is even better, espeically if you are a blaster, and even for non blast spells like dismissal, or prismatic effects it is nice to be ableto ignore your allies. However, for a feat taken much earlier, you can do this for a modest level bump. But still 1.5 feats about?

Now spell-like abilities are tough as Wizards do not have many slots at all, anyway. Spendingthe 6th elvel slotto cast fireball 4 ties a day is not bad, but ponying up a 5th level slot(one of the most valuable in the gmae) really hurts.

So I would put each ability at roughly at .75 to 1 feat.

Compared this way, i would say it is balanced. Compared without prerequisites, it is of course far superior to 5 levels of wizard. One reason prestige classes like the Incantrix, with its laughable entry requirements AND bonus feats is too strong. I mean really, who would not take incantrix and complain about taking a metamagic feat? That is the purpose of the class.

 

[Someone]

Well, allow me to jump in and get flamed

Someone, the problem I see with yoru argument is that you are looking at whatthe calss gets when compared to a straight archtypical charcter of the same general abilities. [snip]

You are very much right! It doesn't follow logically that a class is broken if it offers Very Good Things (because the abilities offered to identical characters are objectively better than those offered by the base class, or because the class doesn't have real downsides compared to the base class) because there are other means to balance the class. The inability of making a similar character only with the base class that has the same abilities as the base+prestige doesn't mean that the class is broken. It's a shame we've spent a page stablishing an almost trivial truth, but once we agree on this we can discard the "radiant Servant is Cleric+" argument and continue discussing the class.

Generally, the two most prevalent balancing factors are: the class upgrades options that otherwise would be very suboptimal (like multiclassing cleric and wizard) or because the requisites aren't exactly powerful, like forcing you to choose Toughness.

I'll argue first that the the requisites for Radiant Servant doesn't make the class powerful; it makes it topical -the turning and healing cleric- but weak compared to other Cleric builds. To get the Radiant Servant's full class bonuses, you must have arguably the worst core domain for a Good cleric (Healing) and one that certainly isn't in the top list (Sun). And you must live with those two domains for 6 levels -excuse me, until you get the third one, and that's IIRC at 11th level at the very least-

Second, the class' top abilities aren't broken. Turning is very much situational, and the Greater turning ability is nice, but only much better than regular turning when the undad turned has means to quickly flee and wait for the turning effect to end. I'll also refer to articles written by others cleraly stating how turning becomes less and less effective at higher levels, due to the monster's hit die increasing much faster than the character's hit die and the prevalence of Turn Resistance.

Also, the improved spells of the Healing domain are good, but can be hardly overpowered: it's a reactive ability. They are just a handful every day, and don't improve Heal, the combat spell that can really make a difference at high levels.

If anything, the Radiant Servant takes the cleric concept people hate to play and improves it, and not by much.