Most broken prestige classes?

[Someone]

The big flaw in this analogy is that the Tempest does not in fact gain access to fighter feats as it progresses, whereas the RSoP continues to gain cleric spell progression. The tempest loses access to the fighter's primary class feature, while the RSoP doesn't.

Of course it's not exactly the same, of else it wouldn't be an analogy. The point stands, however; once you have the requisites, and you want to improve your TWF you'd better taking tempest levels instead of Fighter levels.

This is a problem that PrC's oriented towards clerics and sorcerers have. They have no class features to surrender other than spellcasting progression. Give the PrC full spellcasting progression, and it gets the full benefit of the base class. All you can do to compensate is either lower BAB & HD, or stiffen up the requirements so the class has to sacrifice feats (sacrificing skill points is a minor consideration for clerics & wizards)

On a side note, the tempest is not even a particularly powerful two-weapon fighter build. It's just an interesting variant. Spring Attack and Mobility do not synergize with two-weapon fighting until the tempest hits 5th-level and gets the capstone ability, and even that is rather mild. If one has access to PHBII, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer feats, then taking fighter levels is probably a better power-play.

I hope you're kidding there, but still. From this and other posts I'm deducting that the problem isn't really with the radiant servant, but the cleric class. We should level that to the "most broken base clases", not the "most broken prestige classes"

 

[Felix]

I would have no problem with it being true that only the domain slots prepared with healing domain spells work with the classes ability, but you have not shown that it is the case. There are several places which point to the opposite so far in fact.

<several posts later>

If you have something which actually goes against the wording that has been provided from the books so far I'd be happy to see it.

Originally posted by Mistwell, post #104

By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell. Why? Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.

However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions. You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.

All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot. The wording in the glossary does as well. And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well. And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.

---

Originally posted by Felix, post 103

Also, the text says, "casts a domain spell from the healing domain". The footnote for the cleric table on page 31 of the PHB states:

"In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st through 9th level spells, a cleric gets a domain spell for each spell level, starting at 1st. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell. Domain spells are in addition to any bonus spells the cleric may recieve for having a high Wisdom score."​

[Emphasis added]

This footnote does clearly seperate domain spells from the other spells the cleric may cast from their spell list and those gained from a high Wisdom.

​

I think perhaps these citations are what NilesB refers to when he mentions Empower Healing not applying to every healing spell cast. Your response to the glossary entry is "the glossary sucks". Not a terribly robust argument.

 

[Felon]

Of course it's not exactly the same, of else it wouldn't be an analogy.

A fairly obtuse response, as I did not merely suggest "they're not the same", I said you'd made an outright flawed analogy.

The point stands, however; once you have the requisites, and you want to improve your TWF you'd better taking tempest levels instead of Fighter levels.

The point does not stand. The point has in fact been dismantled, with reasons I clearly laid out. The RSoP retains the cleric's primary class feature (spellcasting progression), while the Tempest does not retain the fighter's primary class feature (bonus feats).

I hope you're kidding there, but still.

Not at all, and again I explained it all for anyone willing to read and accept the facts. If someone's playing a hardcore 2WF build, then every feat that character takes should augment 2WF. Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack simply don't do that, and the latter two are antithetical. Even the 5th-level capstone, Two-Weapon Spring attack, offers a limited payback. The character has gone 5 levels in a class to get what benefit exactly? He'll have a BAB of at least +11, so if he's a serious 2WFer he does he not bounce around making two stabs a round. He gets up close and buzzsaws his opponents with six attacks (or seven, with the right items), and stays there until the opposition is pureed. So, 2WSA nets him one free attack while closing, which you can out of the Two-Weapon Pounce feat.

From this and other posts I'm deducting that the problem isn't really with the radiant servant, but the cleric class. We should level that to the "most broken base clases", not the "most broken prestige classes"

Perhaps, but the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.

 

[Slaved]

I think perhaps these citations are what NilesB refers to when he mentions Empower Healing not applying to every healing spell cast.

Unfortunately those citations are at best implying what some here are stating as pure fact. It is true that the cleric gets an extra domain spell for each spell level, other than 0th of course, but that does not negate the other arguements about what a domain spell is. It is just not firm enough to make the call, especially when other parts, at the very least, suggest otherwise.

Of course it would make sense that when they say domain spell they actually mean a spell from a domain cast from a domain slot but, given the lack of evidence, it appears that it is not actually stated.

Your response to the glossary entry is "the glossary sucks". Not a terribly robust argument.

Since that was in response to someone saying that the glossary conflicts with itself it seems fairly appropriate. Especially when there are parts of the glossary which flatly contradict rules in the book, as shown in other threads on this board. If a claim is made to use the glossary, and then that leads to a possible contradiction, then stating that the glossary is known to make mistakes (and thereby "sucks") is the next logical step.

 

[Slaved]

And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from?

That is weird isn't it? Maybe it is because this deity has the war domain as well? It seems to devalue the war domain by giving these proficiencies.

 

[Felix]

It is just not firm enough to make the call, especially when other parts, at the very least, suggest otherwise.

Would you do me the favor of citing those passages which support your claim, or list the post numbers that I may find where you cite them?

Of course it would make sense that when they say domain spell they actually mean a spell from a domain cast from a domain slot but, given the lack of evidence, it appears that it is not actually stated.

Lack of evidence?

Posts #103 and 104 cite you pages 31 and 32 in the PHB where the one extra spell clerics gain as a "domain spell". Does this not constitue evidence?

Similarly, Mistwell's argument that because a spell is on a domain list, and therefore by your reasoning would always and everywhere qualify as a domain spell, this prepared spell would not be able to be spontaneously converted into a Cure or Inflict. Would you not agree that this is consistent with your argument? And if it is consistent with your argument, do you rule clerics with the Protection domain who prepare a Protection from Evil in a non-domain spell slot may not spontaneously convert that spell into a Cure Light Wounds? If this is not how you rule, how do you reconcile your two rulings?

If a claim is made to use the glossary, and then that leads to a possible contradiction, then stating that the glossary is known to make mistakes (and thereby "sucks") is the next logical step.

There is a contradiction between the glossary and the text on this issue only if you rule that the "domain spell" title is applied to any spell on a domain list regardless of its appearance on the Cleric spell list as well.

In such a case where there is a contradiction with one ruling and no contradiction with another, does this not support the ruling that lacks the contradiction?

 

[pawsplay]

Perhaps, but the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.

Sacrificing a caster level is a cute idea, but there are three problems. First, it slows down access to healing domain spells, which is antithetical to the class's concept. Second, if a character enters the class with any non caster levels, such as a single fighter level, that makes the problem even worse. For instance, a fighter 1/cleric 8 enterting the class would gain no additional proficiencies, but would eventually be down two caster levels. Three, the class is not built around SLAs or melee, so if you don't have spells, what do you have?

Losing a good Will save seems nonsensical. Reducing Fortitude would be problematic for an undead slaying class. You can't go below 2+Int skill points a level. Poor BAB would interfere with undead slaying, and would be a double whammy for a PrC for a medium BAB class. Their skill list is already smaller than the cleric's list. Reducing turn undead ability would be... stupid beyond words.

What does that leave? You could yank martial weapon proficiencies, but that would do little to "balance" the class while presumably detracting from whatever reason they were put their in the first place (possibly to wield sunswords or holy weapons of various sorts). You can reduce hit dice. You could yank the bonus domain, which would do little to balance the class while detracting significantly from the flavor, and further remind clerics with the Healing domain how much you despise them.

Since the class's two main schticks, healing and defeating undead by using their turning abilities, are not front line abilities, reducing the hit die is not illogical.

I think the main way the class could be improved would be to require an Initiate of Pelor feat as a prerequisite, cementing their role as "the cleric of Pelor's cleric of Pelor" while increasing the opportunity cost. An alternative would be to add Improved Turning to the prereqs, along with the Extra Turning they already have, making them less of a skip and a jump for a Divine Metamagic maniac.

 

[Particle_Man]

That is weird isn't it? Maybe it is because this deity has the war domain as well? It seems to devalue the war domain by giving these proficiencies.

Pelor's domains are: Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun. War is not among his domains.

 

[Slaved]

Pelor's domains are: Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun. War is not among his domains.

Sorry, remembered strength and thought war

 

[Herzog]

I am rather surprised no one mentioned the Arcane Hierophant yet.

It's the first (and so far only) PrC I consider too powerfull both as a Player AND as a DM.

However, if someone could point out to me why this PrC is balanced, I might be convinced otherwise.

Herzog