motw:creeping cold

[jabberwocky]

so, i was looking through motw, and realized that by the description "the spell deals 1d6 cumulative points of cold damage per round it is in effect", you can cause hideous amounts of damage. the spell has a duration of three rds. and there is no indication that the spell isnt subject to extending, so if you had a 17th level druid, extending the spell 7 times to a 9th level slot, you end up doing 300d6 damage over 24 rounds, if the subject makes his save, its only half that. aside from seeming really abusive, it also makes the seventh level greater creeping cold entirely useless by comparison. any suggestions on rewording the spell? or just add "this spell may not be extended"?

 

[kreynolds]

I don't know whether or not you can apply extend spell more than once. Anybody?

 

[jabberwocky]

well, even if you can only extend it once, you have a third level spell which is equivalent to the 7th level spell cast by a 20th level caster (per greater creeping cold's description). it just seems odd. and it also makes me think that greater creeping cold is a little underpowered for a 7th level spell

 

[CRGreathouse]

Yes, you can extend more than once.

 

[Pielorinho]

Good catch! I can see two ways to rule this:

1) Meanie way: "This spell may not be extended"
2) Nicer way: "If this spell is extended, in all rounds after the second round, the spell inflicts 3d6 points of cold damage." The idea would be that the spell can only achieve a certain degree of coldness.

Extended 7 times this way, to a ninth-level spell, you'd be doing 69d6 points of damage over 24 rounds. That's a lot of damage, but considering the time period over which the damage is inflicted, I don't think it's overly nasty for a 9th-level spell. You'd probably be better off casting Elemental Swarm.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can use multiple metamagic feats on a single spell

Note that it does not say you can apply the same Metagmagic Feat more that once, but I think that's generally accepted.

Extend Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. Spells with a concentration, instantaneous, or permanent duration are not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

The math is correct - 24 rounds for 300 d6. Impressive. Of course its 1d6, then 2d6, then 3d6 - it takes time.

Assuming it's legal to apply to SAME Metagamic Feat multiple times, which may not be true, at least by the strict wording of the SRD.

 

[kreynolds]

well, even if you can only extend it once, you have a third level spell which is equivalent to the 7th level spell cast by a 20th level caster (per greater creeping cold's description). it just seems odd. and it also makes me think that greater creeping cold is a little underpowered for a 7th level spell

That does seem odd. But I don't have MotW yet so I won't form an opinion quite yet.

 

[jabberwocky]

> 2) Nicer way: "If this spell is extended, in all rounds after the second round, the spell inflicts 3d6 points of cold damage." The idea would be that the spell can only achieve a certain degree of coldness.

i like this interpretation. you dont have to make a singular exception to extend spell, and 69d6 isnt nearly as abusive as 300d6 . still not sure what to do about greater creeping cold - its respectable (21d6 over 6 rounds), but still seems placed a bit high, maybe because you have to be 20th level to get that effect. maybe ill just take out the additional level requirements, since creeping cold isnt level dependent either, and just make it 6 rds, up to 6d6. hmmm...

so if you double extend gcc to 9th youd get 21d6+36d6+36d6=93d6
if it was five rds its 15d6+25d6+25d6 = 65d6
four becomes considerably less
since theyre both 9th level spells, they should be somewhat comparable - but theyre doing differnet amounts of damage per round as well...
gcc extended (if its 5rds) 2x = 65d6 over 15 rds
cc extended 7x = 69d6 over 24 rds

sorry, now im just amusing myself with the math

 

[CRGreathouse]

I considered limiting it to 3d6 per round max, but it didn't look so powerful that it was needed.

As to multiple metamagic feats - there are examples, but no specific rulings (either way) in the PH. Go figure.

 

[alaric]

I really don't see the need for this to be special cased. How many times do combats between 17+ level characters last 24 rounds? More than likely your going to waste a 9th level spell to do around 6d6 worth of damage over 3 rounds with a poor save (since a metamagiced 2nd level spell is still 2nd level for determining saves). How is this better than creeping doom, finger of death, or elemental swarm? too me is just one of those "jumping down from a tree to whirlwind/cleave a group of kobolds and a dragon" scenarios that doesn't happen in actual play so isn't worth altering a spell for those single situations when it actually works to the upmost of it's potential. The balance is the fact that no one will ever have a 7x Extended Creeping Cold memorized since 98% of the time it's a wasted spell. Greater Creeping Cold seems incrediably weak at 7th level, i'd be more likely to put it at 4th or 5th and have it scale from there, even then i don't see it being a very popular spell.