MotW Toughness Feats

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

So what is the current opinion of the various toughness feats in MotW?

Right now I am in the camp that they need some more work. For one thing I have a problem with the idea that two fighters who have the same feat selection, made in a different order, would not be equal.

To me it is like have a feat: Skill Expert: Gain +6 with all checks for this skill. Prereq: 10 ranks in the skill.

A simply better version of skill focus that you can not take until later on.

In Psion's review he said something to the effect that this approach may be clever. (I'd provide the exact quote, but the site appears to be down) I'm not sure what that means, but I respect Psion's judgement enough to wonder what that means.

So far I don't see anything clever at all in it. It just looks like the WoTC MTG model of power advancement.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: WotW Toughness Feats

For one thing I have a problem with the idea that two fighters who have the same feat selection, made in a different order, would not be equal.

Um...how is this the case? No matter when you take Dragon's Toughness it still gives you 12 hp. If you're referring to two fighters, one of whom has taken Dwarf's Toughness and one Dragon's toughness...well, they haven't made the same feat selection. One has had the extra hit points (and survivability) for many levels that the other one has not.

Only in the case where the character is generated at the high level is there any inequality. If the characters are played up through the levels there is a significant difference indeed.

(I suppose if one were really against the way the new Toughness feats worked, one could wrap them all up into one feat: At first it gives you 3 hp, and then gives you more when you reach the required levels of Fortitude save. But that's a matter for House Rules.)

J

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I am assuming that you will always take the best toughness feat for which you qualify.

Are there any other examples of improved versions of feats, with the only restriction being that you most take them later in your career?
I don't consider thae fighter who took the weaker toughness earlier on to have been more survivable, because the other fighter would have selected a separate feat to help with his own survivability.

 

[gfunk]

Are there any other examples of improved versions of feats, with the only restriction being that you most take them later in your career?
I

How about item creation feats?

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

How about item creation feats?

Does that compare?

The various toughness feats are exactly comparable, with the more advanced versions being quantifyably superior.

 

[Privateer]

I havn't seen a problem with the toughness feats. Toughness is not equal to the other ones for a "feat selection" thin-gummy-what. I don't see the problem. You have to take them at a level, and you do, and you get the benefit. A feat that would be a problem would be one that, say, gives you one extra HP per level. If you take it at first as apposed to 18th... well, there'll be some difference

Oh, and the skill feat isn't that off either. It may work

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Hmmm.

I am not convinced. So far, the idea is that a feat is a feat. They may not all be perfectly equal, but they are in the same range.

Before WotW, nothing had ever indicated that a fighter 16th level bonus feat was worth more than the 4th level bonus feat. That is no longer true.

So feats required higher level to take, cure, but that did not make the feat simply better, it just defined the feat as one that took more experience to achieve.

For example, improved critical is certainly a good feat, but it is not vastly superior to weapon specialization. Certainly not 2 to 4 times as good.

Forge ring requires a caster level of 12 while brew potion only requires a CL of 3. But that makes sense becuase rings are typically much more powerful than potions so a more powerful spellcaster would be needed. However, the costs in gold and exp to make a ring is much higher than the cost to brew a potion. So it can not really be said that the ability to make great items at high cost is really better than the ability to make minor items at low cost. Forge ring and brew potion are reasonably equal in power. It certainly would not be an automatic assumption that a wizard would never select brew potion as his 12th level feat. Whereas it is an automatic that the fighter will always take the best toughness feat.

Therefore, higher level feat slots become more valuabel than lower level feat slots. That is a fundamental change.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Perhaps, but:

Toughness was long considered a "weak" feat. It's not exactly game-breaking to introduce somewhat stronger feats, considering their requirements and the fact that Toughness was not good in the first place.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Now that is true.

And I don't think I would have blinked at dwarf's toughness.
It could even have been presented with no or little prereq as a "fixed" toughness.

I am not as certain about the others.

Dodge is also considered a fairly minor feat, but it starts some nice feat chains.

If the 4 toughness feats were in a chain, with each being a prerequiste for the next, I don't think I would mind any of them.

That is the house rule I am leaning towards.

 

[Maniac]

Though this feat can certainly be abused if creating a high level character from the start (an example exists in the smackdown thread) I am not sure it would be so overpowered in acutaly play.

As CRGreathouse said, toughness was always considered a weak feat, usually taken by wizards and sorcerers to ensure survivability at low levels. In addition, it has diminising returns as you gain in level. Three extra HP at 16th level is almost worthless so few characters would ever take it at that level. By adding the extra toughness feats the power scales better with level.

M.