Mounted Charge [was this legal per R.A.W.?]

[Greylock]

Last night I had a rather showy attack that highlighted my dandy new mount. Reading the Quick-Draw thread below made me wonder if it was legal per R.A.W. It seems a bit much maybe, but it all makes sense to me when everything is assumed to have happened in the flow of the charge. It was very cinematic, and effective, and was questioned by no one during the game or after, including the DM. But just in case, I want to run this past you all [we are the party whose Druid wielded a crossbow for some time]. I cerainly hope it's legal, as it kind of defines how my char likes to go about open field battle....

Party is camped beneath a massive tree, nestled between its large snaking roots. Alarm is raised, and all awake to find a small troop of mechanised golem-type constructs approaching at a close distance. Initiative is ours. Barbarian elf runs into battle, Rogue slips up the side of a root and lets loose an arrow, Druid casts Call Lightning and lets loose a crossbow bolt.

My character is the 6th level Mounted Combat specialist. He was sleeping next to his new destrier who has a vicious head-butt attack. BAB +6/+1, Mount base speed 55ft. Here is his combat round, move and attack, action:

1. Quick Mount (DC20 aced.) [Free action.]
2. Commences charge and draws weapon. [Free action, as he is riding. Makes sense to me at any rate.]
3. Leaps +3 foot tree root in direct line to his target (DC15 aced.)[Usage does not take an action, is part of mounts movement.]
4. Continues direct line of charge for 65 feet. [Avoided AoO due to fortituous use of a laser level .]
5. Attacks mechanised beast, gains +2 etc, etc.
6. Mount successfully head-butts.
7. Continues in straight line another 30 feet, and wheels about for the next incoming attack.

It was a beautiful attack, even though it didn't fell the construct. My char really had a jones for this critter, as it killed his older and most beloved mount. But before I make this part of his attack reportoire I want to know if there were any inherent flaws in interpreting the R.A.W. regarding his number of free actions, move actions, and both his attack and the mount's.

If everything turns out to have been hunky-dory, tres cool. Consider this my char's way of showing off (as it was called in the Quick Draw thread).

Input?

 

[fafhrd]

Was the whole thing in one round? Getting up from sleeping should take a move action. Additionally the druid seems to have loaded his crossbow(move action, unless he has rapid reload or it was lying loaded next to him), fired his crossbow(standard action) and cast call lightning(a spell with a 1 round casting time). Your actions look pretty good provided you have the right feats. Only nitpicks are did you make the fight with warhorse check? Did you take appropriate penalties for it not having its saddle(supposition)? I figure you must have had appropriate lighting since you all spotted the constructs ergo no movement problems.

 

[Greylock]

Well, the suprise round was when we were awakened. The beasties are notoriously powerful but noisy and slow. We then rolled init's. In retrospect, I probably misremember the Druid's actions as one round, when it actually took two (the casting, then the actual spell and crossbow strike). Lighting was appropriate as I was in charge of the NPC henchie. The Druid and the Rogue ended up on the dark side of the tree, and were not visible to the enemy, although I and the Barbarian were. If I hadn't been playing the NPC he would most likely have waded in with the Barbarian. I consider this NPC a groom, and play him conservatively when it is my go.

My char's Ride skill mod is +15, btw, and the mount is treated as a trained warhorse, so that check, even though not needed, would have been automatic. As for the saddle, the mount was out of it's barding, but not it's saddle. We were in enemy territory, and were taking all neccessary precautions.

 

[FireLance]

6. Mount successfully head-butts.
7. Continues in straight line another 30 feet, and wheels about for the next incoming attack.

Input?

This is the only part I have problems with. If your mount attacked, it should have stopped moving after attacking unless it has some special ability to continue moving after a charge (and I am not aware of any in the RAW).

If you have the Ride-by Attack feat, you may move after attacking, continuing in the straight line of the charge, but your mount should not be able to attack.

Still, your DM may interpret the rules differently from me.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I'm not sure about the claim in the Quick draw thread. I know you cant charge if you made some other movement that round since it is usually a full round action unless you are reduced to standard actions only (partial actions in 3.0). The question is if you can make a move equivilant action (drawing the weapon) with a charge. It would be a strict and rare ruling to say you couldn't. And honestly I don't care to look up the exact wordings.

One thing I noticed though is you can't charge across any terrain that would slow movement. I doubt if a jump check would allow you to avoid that restriction. I suppose it's on the same lines as the quickdraw question. Move equivilent actions can be made as part of the move. Unfortunatly the charge is it's own action, not a move and an attack. So I dont' think you can combine the jump with the charge. That might be a special ablility like 'pounce' your destrier might have.

I have seen discussions on the charge action, that seemed to conclude that you cant use spring attack, bullrush or rideby attack with the charge. If you charge you stop after your or your mounts attack.

These are all just possible problems. At worst the above scene shouldn't have recieved the +2 from charging, since all these problems stem from the charge full round action.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is the only part I have problems with. If your mount attacked, it should have stopped moving after attacking unless it has some special ability to continue moving after a charge (and I am not aware of any in the RAW).

If you have the Ride-by Attack feat, you may move after attacking, continuing in the straight line of the charge, but your mount should not be able to attack.

This is my interpretation as well.

 

[Greylock]

One thing I noticed though is you can't charge across any terrain that would slow movement. I doubt if a jump check would allow you to avoid that restriction. I suppose it's on the same lines as the quickdraw question. Move equivilent actions can be made as part of the move. Unfortunatly the charge is it's own action, not a move and an attack. So I dont' think you can combine the jump with the charge. That might be a special ablility like 'pounce' your destrier might have.

It was not a Jump check, it was Ride check, and success renders it part of the mounts move action.

I have seen discussions on the charge action, that seemed to conclude that you cant use spring attack, bullrush or rideby attack with the charge. If you charge you stop after your or your mounts attack.

Ah, that's what set off my spidey-sense. I knew something was wrong here. I read elsewhere a few monthes back that the rider and mount could attack as one, and never figured that it should effect the Ride-by-Attack option. (This was my first use of this feat.)

That makes absolute sense, and I shall amend my 'combat-options' list thusly. For what it's worth, the head-butt was not a deal-breaking killer blow, so the impact on the combat action results would not have been greatly changed. The mistake is noted for future use, though.

 

[Greylock]

Wait, wait....

What you are suggesting is that a succesful charge pre-empts a Ride-by-Attack, even on the parrt of the rider?

When the mount attacks. Yes, that makes some sense, but not a successfull attack by the Rider. What is the point of RBA otherwise?

RBA is not an Attack. It is the ability to move after an attack.

[Edit again. Read everyone elses posts. Got it. The mount gets no attack on a RBA attack. There was my mistake. Thank's ya'll.]

 

[frankthedm]

The mount gets no attack on a RBA attack. There was my mistake. Thank's ya'll.]

more than that
\

He was sleeping next to his new destrier who has a vicious head-butt attack. BAB +6/+1, Mount base speed 55ft. Here is his combat round, move and attack, action:

1. Quick Mount (DC20 aced.) [Free action.]
technically quick mount requires you only be adjacent, not necessarily standing. Being prone from sleeping is technically a non issue.
Mount/Dismount a SteedSRD Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check (your armor check penalty, if any, applies to this check). If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. (You can’t attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.)

2. Commences charge and draws weapon. [Free action, as he is riding. Makes sense to me at any rate.]
by the rules you cannot draw as a free action without quickdraw, mount cannot charge because it took a move equivalent action to stand from sleep.
http://www.sh-ranch.de/Photos/sleeping horse.jpg
SRD Charge: Full-Round Action footnote #5
5 May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round.


3. Leaps +3 foot tree root in direct line to his target (DC15 aced.)[Usage does not take an action, is part of mounts movement.]
As long as the jump check was high enough based on a “standing jump” if the 20’ run-up distance had not yet been reached, it may or may not be legal, I am cool with leaping obstacles on a charge, but that is a kettle of fish still on the FAQed up fire.

4. Continues direct line of charge for 65 feet. [Avoided AoO due to fortuitous use of a laser level .]
you have left the 3.5 rules behind when you moved off the grid, congrats! Don’t forget 3.5 considers your mount 10 feet wide for combat space and AoOs.

5. Attacks mechanised beast, gains +2 etc, etc.
SRD Charge: Full-Round Action footnote #5
5 May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round.

6. Mount successfully head-butts.
Mount’s movement must end. Mounted combat lets you attack and keep going in s strait line, not you and your mount attack and keep going in s strait line.
RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack. Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

7. Continues in straight line another 30 feet, and wheels about for the next incoming attack.
So you managed to move through your foes space? [charge technicality ] “about for the next incoming attack”.is flavor text if you are not using facing.

Point of RBA?! You can keep going if you disable your target or if it is legal for your mount to move through its space [also see overun]. the FAQiing over of overun may have changed things.


OVERRUN

You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps.

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

Step 2: Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect. If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving. (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) In either case, the overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3.

Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone.

Step 4: Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square.

Improved Overrun: If you have the Improved Overrun feat, your target may not choose to avoid you.

Mounted Overrun (Trample): If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.

 

[Greylock]

I am listening, and am considering your points, Frank.

So's I don't double post though, many folks are equating Ride with Jump. I thought I made that distinction clear.

As long as the jump check was high enough based on a “standing jump”...

The root leap was part of the movement, and subject to a Ride check, not Jump. Not a quibble. It's a major difference.