Mounted Charge [was this legal per R.A.W.?]

[frankthedm]

I am listening, and am considering your points, Frank.

So's I don't double post though, many folks are equating Ride with Jump. I thought I made that distinction clear....

The root leap was part of the movement, and subject to a Ride check, not Jump. Not a quibble. It's a major difference.

That dc 15 is just the DC to see if you stay with! If your mount has a low jump modifier then a ride of +150 won't get you an inch higher than the +12 [4*STR 8*extra speed over 30] modifier for a mount with an 18 STR and 50 foot movement. Now if that mount does have the run feet this would add +4 more IF you got to the 20 foot mark before your mount needed to make the jump.

Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its movement. Use your Ride modifier or the mount’s Jump modifier, whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. If you fail your Ride check, you fall off the mount when it leaps and take the appropriate falling damage (at least 1d6 points). This usage does not take an action, but is part of the mount’s movement.


JUMP (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)

Check: The DC and the distance you can cover vary according to the type of jump you are attempting (see below).

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a –6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate). If you attempt a Jump check untrained, you land prone unless you beat the DC by 5 or more.

Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet).

If your check succeeds, you land on your feet at the far end. If you fail the check by less than 5, you don’t clear the distance, but you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to grab the far edge of the gap. You end your movement grasping the far edge. If that leaves you dangling over a chasm or gap, getting up requires a move action and a DC 15 Climb check.
Long Jump Distance Jump DC1
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
25 feet 25
30 feet 30
1 Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

High Jump: A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared.

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet.
High Jump Distance1 Jump DC2
1 foot 4
2 feet 8
3 feet 12
4 feet 16
5 feet 20
6 feet 24
7 feet 28
8 feet 32
1 Not including vertical reach; see below.
2 Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

Obviously, the difficulty of reaching a given height varies according to the size of the character or creature. The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.) Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.
Creature Size Vertical Reach
Colossal 128 ft.
Gargantuan 64 ft.
Huge 32 ft.
Large 16 ft.
Medium 8 ft.
Small 4 ft.
Tiny 2 ft.
Diminutive 1 ft.
Fine 1/2 ft.

Hop Up: You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.

Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Special: Effects that increase your movement also increase your jumping distance, since your check is modified by your speed.

If you have the Run feat, you get a +4 bonus on Jump checks for any jumps made after a running start.

A halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Jump checks because halflings are agile and athletic.

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Jump checks.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Jump checks.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

 

[RangerWickett]

Greylock, I would'a let you do it.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Charge!

As others have said, the issue is the mount attacking without an ability to continue afterwards.

There is a Monstrous Feat called 'Fly-by-Attack' which allows flying critters to do this. I house ruled a ground-based version for critters.

Of course, you would need to ride to the side of your target, not directly into.

The other issue was the waking from sleeping, standing up (move action) then mounting your instantly ready destrier. It should have been 2 rounds worth of actions.

I have no problem with you drawing a weapon as part of a move action.. assuming you have at least a +1 BAB.


Sounds very cinematic tho!

 

[Diirk]

There is a Monstrous Feat called 'Fly-by-Attack' which allows flying critters to do this. I house ruled a ground-based version for critters.

Its called 'spring attack'. While fly-by-attack lets you do more things between the movement part (standard action vs a single attack), it also doesn't negate the AoO for moving through threatened squares like spring attack does, so there's advantages each has over the other. Making a house-ruled fly-by-attack for ground based creatures seems a bit off, why would anyone ever bother with shot on the run (or likely spring attack) in that case ?

However, the one thing that neither of them allow you to do is to take 2 move actions and an attack/standard, which is what his mount did in this case. So, no, your mount can't charge, attack, and continue to move.

 

[azmodean]

I think there is a misunderstanding about the sequence of events.
Enemies approaching
party makes listen check to wake up (DC is at +10 due to them being asleep)
Suprise round (this seems a bit odd, do the enemies not know where the party is?)
Partial action, everyone in the party stands up
1st round (as described in initial post)

So the mount and/or PC character standing up did not occur during the round in question.

My take on the situation

1. Quick Mount (DC20 aced.) [Free action.]

Good.

2. Commences charge and draws weapon. [Free action, as he is riding. Makes sense to me at any rate.]

As has been said, this one is iffy. I personally count a charge as including a move action, it looks like your DM does as well.

3. Leaps +3 foot tree root in direct line to his target (DC15 aced.)[Usage does not take an action, is part of mounts movement.]

Also iffy, I and your DM seem to think it is ok.

4. Continues direct line of charge for 65 feet. [Avoided AoO due to fortituous use of a laser level .]

I gotta get me a laser level, and maps, and figures, etc...

5. Attacks mechanised beast, gains +2 etc, etc.

fine.

6. Mount successfully head-butts.

this is the only problem, as you have seen from other posts, as the mount does not have a feat allowing this.

7. Continues in straight line another 30 feet, and wheels about for the next incoming attack.

fine.


If one of my players had a mount with a particularly good attack, I'd allow a feat that allows the mount to make an attack during a charge and move afterwards. Either the player or the mount would get the feat, depening on the situation.
More likely, I would give the feat to the mount as an intrinsic ability of some sort. EX I guess.

 

[Greylock]

Greylock, I would'a let you do it.

I think I love you, RangerWickett .

So, if I'm reading the consensus here correctly, at my next oppurtunity I should acquire Spring Attack as a feat for my mount, if I want to have him attack on an RBA? That won't be for a few levels yet, but I can live with it.

After the charge, another construct attacked my char and his mount while they stood stock still. I'm assuming the full attacks we both made were OK, since no move action was taken? BTW, to avoid any assumptions which may color anyone's visual image of this fight, my char was not using a lance. Just a plain-jane bastard sword. Not that makes a difference in game mechanics.

Also, why should overrun rules [which I hate] come into play on a mounted charge and ride-by-attack? Seems purchasing that feat over-rules overrun, otherwise RBA is useless.

 

[Diirk]

Well spring attack would allow your mount to make a single melee attack in the middle of a move action... but charging is a full round action, so it wouldn't help with that at all. Remember the prereqs too, dodge, mobility, etc.. might be a while before your mount can get it.

 

[frankthedm]

Also, why should overrun rules [which I hate] come into play on a mounted charge and ride-by-attack? Seems purchasing that feat over-rules overrun, otherwise RBA is useless.

It is not useless, it is just not as useful as you hoped it was. It is by RAW a strait line continuation of a charge, which is a strait line move to your foe. It seems pretty simple that the onus is on the charger to get through the foes space. Just because you hate the overun action,that does not mean you deserve more abilities from a feat.

I do not think spring attack will help. Your need to charge [special full round action negates you mounts need to take a standard move and attack for spring attack. Honestly the RAW is unforgiving on RBA and overrun, but that is what you asked for. Most DMs probably wouldn't split hairs to this level. Myself, i keep this stuff mentally prepared to stop min maxed twinks dead in thier tracks.

CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

MOUNTED COMBAT
Horses in Combat: Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.
If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage.
Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat.

 

[Diirk]

Well you can't overrun on a charge anymore...

Its true that strictly by the raw its very hard to do a ride-by-attack charge, as a charge is meant to move you into the closest square to hit your opponent, and to continue that straight line in most cases would involve going through him which isn't possible... but there are some situations where it works out, such as if your 50' south and 5' east of an enemy.. your closest square is 50' due north, and a straight line takes you north past him

As a reasonable house rule I'd suggest allowing charges to not require you to move into the closest square, and instead let you charge slightly to the side of your opponent so that you can hit him as you ride past.

 

[fafhrd]

I'm a little confused with this ride by attack charging business.

Ride by attack: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again...

Mounted combat: If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge.

Does anyone dispute that when executing a normal mounted charge that a warhorse can attack? If not, doesn't the "standard charge" bit suggest that the horse would be able to execute its attack? The mounted combat text suggests that it's the horse that's doing the charging and the rider gains some like benefits and penalties, while the the Ride by Attack text seems to treat the rider and the mount as one since "you" aren't the one taking the added move. Taken together I'd think the horse gets its attack, unless the standard charge means "charging as if you weren't mounted at all."

This interpretation may very well be incorrect or referring to a problem that has already been explained away, but am I wrong in a literal sense?