Mouse Guard, Anyone?

[Novem5er]

Hey all,

I've been running 4e in a steady campaign for almost a year now, and it's been a pretty good run. After next session, I'm planning on taking a break from 4e and trying out the new Mouse Guard RPG.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Guard-Roleplaying-Game-Crane/dp/1932386882"]Amazon.com: Mouse Guard Roleplaying Game (9781932386882): Luke Crane, David Petersen: Books[/ame]


I saw the book at Books-A-Million last week and just had to pick it up (thank you Christmas gift cards!). I had briefly seen the Mouse Guard comics (on which the RPG is based), but I bought the book on the merit of the art, presentation, and the idea alone. I did flip through the rules some beforehand, and it looked pretty good. It seemed "rules lite" and RP strong... which is kind of what I'm looking for.

After I brought home the book, I did a little research and was surprised to see that MG RPG won the Origins award for Best RPG! Wow! I'd never even seen it before that day in BAM. Even funnier since I'm planning to stop 4e for a bit and put on my mouse ears.

Now, we like 4e a lot and we're actually in a really great Eberron campaign with a lot of character development and great pulp-style plots. I'm just getting a little burned out... and the truth is, I love our characters and story, but I'm at the point where I DREAD starting combat. This is not a diss on 4e; we've just reached a point in our game where our character interactions with each other and the world are MUCH more satisfying than actually rolling combat dice.

Mouse Guard seems to be designed along the lines we're leaning towards. We will play 4e again (in fact another players wants to start running sessions!)... but for now, I'm very curious about all things Mousy.

Point of this thread:

Has anyone had any experience with Mouse Guard RPG? Comments, concerns, pit-falls, jubilation?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Playing a mouse isn't my cup of tea, but I've heard good things about the Burning Wheel system.

 

[Daern]

I have a similar interest in the system but I am not keen on the mouse part, especially since i have never read the comics. I Burning Wheel just as good?

 

[Crothian]

I found the setting and mouse part very interesting, but the system for us was the issue.

 

[kaomera]

I have a similar interest in the system but I am not keen on the mouse part, especially since i have never read the comics. I Burning Wheel just as good?

Mouse Guard and Burning Wheel are both really awesome, IMO. I've had great fun running MG for a couple of friends; the "Mice with Swords" thing creates a kind of simplicity that is more (elegant) than just a "basic" version of BW, and I think that the rules really do the source material justice. I'd take a look at both the game and the comics if you get the chance, they're just plain fun.

Burning Wheel I've had some trouble with, but I've kept beating my head against it because it's just so damned cool. I think I've actually learned a lot about how BW really works by running MG. There's really a lot to Burning Wheel, even though it fits in such a neat package. All of the rules mesh together very finely, and they don't really handle some of the preconceptions and habits that I brought to the game when I first tried it... I suppose it's a case of old dog / new tricks. Actually, I think if you read the rules (maybe a few times) and actually play it the way it says to play it you should be ok.

 

[Novem5er]

I was unfamiliar with the Burning Wheel system before I bought Mouse Guard, and I've read since that MG uses a simplified version of Burning Wheel. Several reviewers online said that they'd had previous bad experience with Burning Wheel, but that they found that MG had actually improved upon the system.

The hardest part of playing Mouse Guard is going to be getting used to the structure. For those not yet in the know, Mouse Guard separates the game session into two "turns": the GM's turn, and the Player's turn.

These are not turns like D&D turns (a 6 second snap of action). The "turns" are actually 1-2 hour mini-sessions.

GM's turn: The GM sends the players out on a mission for the Guard (or continues a previous, longer mission). The GM places obstacles in front of the patrol, who must use their skills and abilities to overcome the obstacles (weather, wilderness, animals, and other mice) and complete the mission.

Players earn different rewards through RPing, succeeding (and failing) skill/ability checks, and completing (or not completing) their goals. By RPing their character traits when its disadvantageous to their characters, players earn a special reward called "checks".

Player's turn: When the mission is ended (or a long rest during an extended mission) the GM hands the reins over to the players. Players now take turns spending the "checks" they earned in the GM turn to make skill/ability checks to drive the narrative. This is a mix of cooperative RP between the players and the GM, with a few skill checks to determine general outcomes. Players use the Player's Turn to recover from ailments/injuries, to make or find items or aid, or to work on personal goals outside the mission.


Basically, the GM drives the narrative of the game during his/her turn, but reacts to the players' goals/ideas during the Player's turn. The players do just the opposite.

Since character advancement is achieved by succeeding (and failing) on skill/ability checks, there are fewer dice rolls called for than in D&D. For example, in my 4e Eberron campaign, if players wanted to search for an NPC's house, break in, steal something and get out.... we're talking micromanaging a dozen plus smaller actions with accompanying dice rolls. In Mouse Guard, this would all be accomplished with a single Scout roll, and the rest would be narration.

Mouse Guard isn't a game about pass/fail... it's about "succeed as intended or suffer a twist".

It will be definitely a new experience for my 4e group. It will either really engage us, or it will revitalize our interest in 4e. I'll post what happens!

 

[jdrakeh]

I found the setting and mouse part very interesting, but the system for us was the issue.

Same here. I opted for Frank Sronce's Hyperborean Mice, instead.

 

[level1gamer]

I became very interested in Mouse Guard recently. I'm about halfway through the rule book. I was ambivalent about the mouse with swords thing at first. But, as I learn more about the setting, I find it very compelling. I want to pick up the comics, now.
And the rule set is very diffferent from D&D (any edition) and is quite refreshing. I hope to play it soon.

 

[Mean DM]

If you don't want to be mice, but the idea of playing a Dunedain in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth scratches your itch, there is a great MG hack out there called Realm Guard. It has the same structure of MG, but with a few modifications to make it human centric. I'd give the link, but the site appears to be temporarily down at the moment. Having played MG, it think the the system in eminently adaptable to more traditional play. This said, i have to admit that the MG sings when you get into the role of mice with cloak and sharp pointy things. And it was certainly no harder to get into the mood than playing, say, an Orc.

 

[Aurumvorax]

Some people have trouble adapting to Burning Wheel because it requires equal participation between player and GM. The players have just as much pull in the flow of events as the GM does dictating them. The basic concept of Mouse Guard is

Step 1: GM describes problem

Step 2: Players dictate actions, steps to action, solution, result, and denouement.

Repeat. If you're GM'ing, understand that the players drive the story, not you. Your job is to create the situation and practically everything else is up to the players. If you're playing, understand that the game hinges on your action and inaction. During character creation, you come up with an extensive list of allies, your parents, friends, and even your enemies all of whom you can decide to call upon or encounter. If you're not proactive then the game literally grinds to a halt because the GM's job isn't to go "Moving on, you arrive at so-and-so three days later..."

As an actual role-playing game, it's a blast. I'm a fan of the comic and while it's not required I suggest you read up on it. The society of the Guard is extremely conservative, something I liked as well given that comic book writers tend towards the leftist side. Your characters are basically the definition of lawful; everything you do is for benefit of mousekind at the expense of all else and that requires placing restrictions on personal freedom. Without spoiling anything, the first part of the series is about a civil war arising because one mouse believes it's more efficient to unite the towns under a single banner than be subservient to the Guard and rely on their protection.

Enjoy the game and go into it with an open mind. The thought of being a "mouse-with-a-sword" might throw some people off but delivering mail and maintaining the scent barrier usually leads to a web of conspiracies or epic fights with snakes.

 

[Crothian]

As an actual role-playing game

As opposed to what?

 

[Aurumvorax]

As opposed to what?

As opposed to a rollplaying game. And I don't mean that as a pejorative, I mean to say that Mouse Guard differs from other games in that rolling dice isn't that important.

Mouse Guard's mechanics are a means to an end. Failure is a minor setback (you lose a fight, you slump away with a hurt pride) and only very rarely will you actually end up dead. The dice you roll are essentially factors for the GM to create a new scenario. Say you're trying to cross a river and all mice except one pass the test. The GM won't say "You drown, create a new character" he'll say "So and so is carried down stream." The players will respond with "We chase after him, catching up a mile down, and pull his exhausted body out of the water." The GM will finish the round by saying "He's exhausted (a condition of losing the test) but alive. You're far off your original trail and by the smell in the air, fairly close to a badger's den."

Had you successfully crossed the river, he might have had a different scenario planned (ambushed by bandits or a sudden cold front). Failing isn't meant to be a setback but simply provide a different branch to the same continuous path.

Character creation is by far the best aspect of the game as everyone can participate and no dice are rolled. You have a series of 20 questions or so that determines what your good at. Things like "What did your parents do? What did your master stress? Do you stockpile for the winter or improvise?"

 

[Novem5er]

Here's a really great podcast review of Mouse Guard RPG from Paul Tavis at "Have Games, Will Travel". It's pretty long and gives a great overview of the setting, the characters, and mechanics.

http://cdn1.libsyn.com/havegameswil...16&nva=20100110033516&t=0bc3d04bc14184036d6ba

He does a great job of tying everything together, as it's an easy but unique system. Mouse Guard is based on the Burning Wheel system, but after some research... it's a MUCH simpler derivative that review after review says is much more friendly and easy to pick up.

 

[Mistwell]

The comics are fantastic. And they have won tons of comic awards.

I've read about a third of the rpg and it seems quite good.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

If you don't want to be mice, but the idea of playing a Dunedain in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth scratches your itch, there is a great MG hack out there called Realm Guard.

Hey, now that is pretty cool. I think the high fantasy epic vibe of Middle Earth would work well with a "shared narrative control" game like Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard. Damn. Too many games, too little time…

 

[Novem5er]

My regular D&D group got together last night and we made our Mouse Guard characters. The book suggests that the whole party gets together to make your mice as a group, that way you can explain the rules once to everyone, and the players can work together so that their characters will compliment each other. Also, it allows the players to set up roleplaying conflicts... which I can get to in a bit.

The last chapter of the Mouse Guard book details character creation, which is odd because it's often the first chapter or two in other roleplaying systems. The book presents character creation as a list of questions or prompts. For instance, the prompt asks the players "What rank do you hold in the Guard?" and allows the players to choose anything from a new recruit (tenderpaw) up to a grizzled veteran (guard captain). This choice gives you some base stats (younger characters have less Will (mental strength) but more Health (physical strength) etc.) and also affects other prompts down the line.

The prompts continue and have players choose things like:

• Where were you born? (gives 1 skill and a Trait)
• What did your parents do? (gives another skill)
• What are you innately good at? (another skill)
• Whom did you apprentice under when you started at the Guard (skill)
• What did your Guard mentor stress you learn? (another skill)
• etc...

Sometimes the different ranks (chosen earlier) get to choose more than once. Tenderpaws get to choose TWO skills from the "parents" list, reflecting that they are still young enough to have a greater parental influence. I like this system a lot because, instead of giving you X number of skill points to spend on a big list, each choice helps the player build character background.

Each of these skill choices is also interesting in that, instead of choosing an additional skill, a player can often put another point in a skill he'd chosen earlier. Thus, players have the option of branching out or really focusing their skills.

Character creating in Mouse Guard, however, is not just about selecting skills! At a certain point, the characters are asked to:

• Name a friend; give him/her a name, profession, and a home city.
• Name your parents; give names (their profession was chosen eariler) and home.
• Name your mentor (another mouse guard who can be an ally)
• Name an enemy! Give them a name, profession, and location.

These choices aren't just roleplaying fodder. The players can get bonuses and aid when they are in a city with one of their allies. Of course, being near an enemy could cause complications...

The players choose a few more things, like their own name, fur color, and cloak color. Each mouse is given a cloak of a certain color by their mentor when they graduate from being a Tenderpaw. The color is supposed to represent some part of the mouse's personality; so this is again an interesting little choice for characters to make.

In our group, one of the players chose to be a Tenderpaw so she did NOT get a cloak. In fact, the rules state that she has to choose another one of the PLAYERS as her mentor! If we play a whole season of missions, our tenderpaw recruit can be promoted to full guardmouse, at which point her mentor (our other player!) will award her with a cloak in the color of his choosing. We were already looking forward to that RP moment, lol.

At the very end, the players are then tasked to think a little bigger than skills and traits. They have to create their character's Belief and Instinct.

These are two really neat mechanics in Mouse Guard. They are both roleplaying cues that, if used in the game, can give the player special rewards. A Belief, is an overarching ethical or moral statement that guides that individual mouse. An Instinct is like a gut-reaction, almost like a catch-phrase or action. Both help define a mouse, give players a direction for roleplaying, and help the GM set up situations that will challenge the players.

One of my players wrote these for her inquisitive, science-based mouse:

• Belief: "The reward of discovery is worth any risk."
• Instinct: "I will always aid the injured or sick."

If this player "plays her belief" in the course of a mission (perhaps risking herself for a chance at finding a new scientific truth) then she will be rewarded with a Fate point (a resource that lets her re-roll failed dice). Now, if the player goes against her belief in the course of a mission (perhaps reluctantly ignoring a potential source of new knowledge in order to complete a vital mission) then she will be rewarded with a Persona point (a resource that can give you bonus dice!). Players are also rewarded for playing their Instincts (though there is no reward for NOT playing your instinct).

The Belief/Instinct aspect is such a neat part of Mouse Guard. As a GM, they give me direct insight into what my players want to encounter in the game. The player I mentioned above obviously wants to encounter new scientific discoveries... and is willing to risk a lot to get them.

My job as a GM is to challenge that Belief by saying "Oh really?" and setting up situations that will put that character in a bind. Is a new discovery worth risking personal injury? The safety of a friend? The success of a Guard mission? Life itself?

These are the kind of stories that this player wants to play, and I can tell all that by one line on her character sheet.

It really gets interesting when different players have conflicting beliefs or instincts. When the Patrol Leader has an Instinct to "Approach new situations with caution", what does he do when his tenderpaw apprentice rushes into unknown country after a rare medicinal herb?

I'm so looking forward to our first session!

We did do a test combat (called a Fight Conflict) involving a pen of pet crickets, two guard mice, and a hungry toad. It was a blast, and I'd post how it went if anyone were interested...

 

[Aurumvorax]

Glad to see you had a blast. I wish they would come out with an expansion to the game. The comic is still ongoing so maybe there'll be some future supplements.

 

[Crothian]

As opposed to a rollplaying game. And I don't mean that as a pejorative, I mean to say that Mouse Guard differs from other games in that rolling dice isn't that important.

All games are different, but it's not a true diceless game and the dice do matter; least they did in the game I played at Gen Con. Success with penalties is a neat idea but that places a lot more pressure and responsibility on the guy running it and the guy who ran it at the table I was at did not do a good job.

The game has some neat mechanical ideas and the setting is very interesting. But from my experience it required too much of the people playing and when everyone but the guy running was new to the game it just didn't work out.

 

[Aurumvorax]

All games are different, but it's not a true diceless game and the dice do matter; least they did in the game I played at Gen Con. Success with penalties is a neat idea but that places a lot more pressure and responsibility on the guy running it and the guy who ran it at the table I was at did not do a good job.

The game has some neat mechanical ideas and the setting is very interesting. But from my experience it required too much of the people playing and when everyone but the guy running was new to the game it just didn't work out.

Playing a game at a convention means there'll be more dice rolling than normal which can be good or bad based on the system. I can't deny it requires an equal amount of work from everyone at the table (as Novem5er illuminated) and it's a system I probably couldn't play at a convention or tournament.

 

[kaomera]

As opposed to a rollplaying game. And I don't mean that as a pejorative, I mean to say that Mouse Guard differs from other games in that rolling dice isn't that important.

Personally, I think this tends to make the dice more important in Mouse Guard, not less. Or at least more interesting. Gathering and rolling the dice, and the results thereof, have a more dramatic impact on both the feel of play and the development of the story that, say, 4e where you have a lot more die rolls, but each is usually much less significant overall. Also, in Mouse Guard you have to make more significant decisions about the die roll. The whole point of turning "failure" into (interesting / fun / awesome) complications is to get the players to a place where they are willing to sabotage their characters' chances at a test (for future gain - you need those checks for the Player Turn!). So then you actually have to decide which tests you really want to pass and which you'd rather record as a fail...

The game has some neat mechanical ideas and the setting is very interesting. But from my experience it required too much of the people playing and when everyone but the guy running was new to the game it just didn't work out.

All games require a certain amount of buy-in; "indy" games tend to require more than "traditional" games (IMO / IME). If you try to play 4e with a player who just doesn't like the system, things aren't likely to go well. Mouse Guard requires that players not only be down with "Mice with Swords", but also be willing to give up always trying their best to succeed at every roll, and ready to make the most of the rewards they get in the Player Turn... I had great success introducing the game to new players, even when I wasn't really 100% familiar with the system yet myself. (But I should note that I had a far worse result with BW just a few years before - not simply, if at all, because it's a more complex take on the rules set, but quite a bit because I brought in a lot of what I had learned as "good gaming" in the preceding 25 or so years, and quite a lot of it didn't apply / was detrimental to playing Mouse Guard. So while I'm not trying to discount your experiences, I think that players unfamiliar with RPGs in general might have a better time of it than those who have played a lot of traditional RPGs but not indy RPGs. Er, perhaps... I think MG ought to make a really good bridge between the two, but maybe the GM needs to be aiming specifically for that result.)