[Mouse Guard] Luke gave us the first copy as a wedding gift!

[JeffB]

this is marketing in bad form. I would prefer he instead do a press release in the publisher's forum.

this.

 

[eyebeams]

Yeah, but lets be practical. It is like comparing apples and oranges IMO. Does Scott need to do what you are saying? His position is one of a totally different caliber. I mean over 3/4 of every page of the board is about D&D.

I have my suspicions that WotC does this with sites that have a rather higher readership volume, like AICN Tabletop.

Then someone wants to promote something new and different with the social marketing he can afford and we immediately rise the war flag?

Well, I think that aside from linking to your stuff sigs, people should feel free to reply to spontaneously started threads from people who aren't getting free product or anything out of the deal. So if a someone else posts about Mouse Guard, John should get right on that. Hell, Luke Crane should get right on that. But yeah, planned multi-forum post sprees are a bit much.

 

[eyebeams]

Huh. That sort of ruins it then. I just went from "Cool, I am interested in this because it is new and not the same ol' same ol' D&D banter! And congrats on marriage!" to "The game probably isn't that good afterall. Silently wishing you ill will..."


Oh well.

Keep in mind that it probably is a pretty good game. I own Burning Wheel and Burning Empires. Both of them are worthwhile purchases.

 

[jdrakeh]

That's what you do with social marketing.

It's dishonest because it isn't being upfront with the motives for participating. Compare this with Scott Rouse. When he talks to you there are no illusions about why he's there. He's the D&D guy, representing the brand.

(But if Scott posted a new thread about how cool a new D&D book was every time one came out, would you think that was okay? You might -- but I have a feeling this would be frowned upon.)

The post above and conversation is, by contrast, equivalent to WotC giving a fan free stuff in exchange for talking about how cool it is on forums -- and not telling you about it. That fan would be acting as a plant, a shill.

If John wants to market stuff, then he should throw "Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard Fan Representative" in his signature and be upfront about what he's doing.

I completely respect what you're getting at here, but you're talking about an incestual and untrustworthy culture of marketing. As long as this arrangement produces results and game designers place more value on profit than honesty — it ain't gonna change. This isn't an isolated thing, it's a movement. Now, just so we're clear, I hate this thing. I hate this thing with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns.

I've hated this type of marketing ever since certain online co-ops started endorsing it years ago.

I've hated it when coordinated posting efforts have turned every thread on the front page of RPGNet into a promotion for Hot New Game.

I've hated it every time that I bought a game only to find out that it was sub-par crap being misrepresented by the author's online buddies.*

I've hated it every time that a publisher flipped out when I gave them an honest review as opposed to a Glowing Ad Copy review — because that's what they had gotten accustomed to receiving from their friends.

There are now entire forums dedicated to friends reviewing the games of friends or fellow business partners in a positive, glowing, light

So, yeah, I feel you — but I also know that it's out of my hands. Calling out those who engage in this kind of crap by name won't make it go away (as much as I wish that it would).

*Just to be clear, not all shilled games that I've purchased are crap (sadly, though, many of them were).

 

[darjr]

So, yeah, I feel you — but I also know that it's out of my hands. Calling out those who engage in this kind of crap by name won't make it go away (as much as I wish that it would).

No, but it might help make others aware of it.

 

[xechnao]

No, but it might help make others aware of it.

Those who genuinely are not aware must be a very, very few -I think. I say "genuinely" because lets not omit to say that pretending has its part in human nature too : after all we are not robots or machines (even if we are communicating via a machine and are bound to its limits over here)

 

[jdrakeh]

No, but it might help make others aware of it.

Maybe. If history has proven anything, though, it's that people who frequently shill products (or publishers who engage in such promotion) will soon dogpile Malcolm (and possibly myself) claiming that such a practice does not exist and that those who claim it does are big meanies who hate small press games

 

[darjr]

Those who genuinely are not aware must be a very, very few -I think. I say "genuinely" because lets not omit to say that pretending has its part in human nature too : after all we are not robots or machines (even if we are communicating via a machine and are bound to its limits over here)

There are new people to gaming and the gaming fora all the time.

 

[darjr]

Maybe. If history has proven anything, though, it's that people who frequently shill products (or publishers who engage in such promotion) will soon dogpile Malcolm (and possibly myself) claiming that such a practice does not exist and that those who claim it does are big meanies who hate small press games

And that tactic seems less and less productive, as far as covering for the shilling.

 

[eyebeams]

I completely respect what you're getting at here, but you're talking about an incestual and untrustworthy culture of marketing. As long as this arrangement produces results and game designers place more value on profit than honesty — it ain't gonna change. This isn't an isolated thing, it's a movement.

Well, here's the thing: I am in fact a marketing professional (though this does not cross over with my RPG work at all, FYI). I have in fact looked for blogs interested in talking about stuff, but there are limits. Offhand, I'd say they were:

1) Nobody you ask gets anything for free.
2) Nobody you ask is disguising a for-profit effort.
3) The person can say anything they want.

I think this is acceptable to a point. With reviewers, you can send them stuff, because for reviewers, #3 is strongly expressed (well, with exceptions, as you point out).

For Aeternal Legends, I asked people to get the word out this 1-2-3 (for nothing, not for profit, with no inducement to say nice things). The drawback is that it doesn't work nearly as well as doing it the not-so-good way. (Plus, I got a glowing review from a guy who proceeded to never post it, which sucks. Unfortunately, RPGs are niched and turn on smaller rewards culled from higher-quality conversions, so conversation marketing with these less-than-good elements becomes disproportionately useful.