Move Silently Question

[kreynolds]

If a hustle is twice as fast as a walk, and you can hustle 30' using a MEA, then walking is a 15' MEA, so to walk 30' in a round would require two MEAs, which makes sense with the overland distances/speeds. It's assumed you're constantly walking (which translates to MEA/MEA as your actions), and you move 30' per round when walking.

Exactly. Otherwise, you skip everywhere you go, and that's just silly, and certainly not heroic.

The important question is this: Is walking, just walking, 30 feet down the road a full-round action? If not, then "my camp" is correct. If it is a full-round action, I'd really like to see the explanation and reasoning behind that.

 

[drnuncheon]

The important question is this: Is walking, just walking, 30 feet down the road a full-round action? If not, then "my camp" is correct. If it is a full-round action, I'd really like to see the explanation and reasoning behind that.

Yes, walking for 30' is a full-round action. Or, rather, you can walk 30' in six seconds - since you do not generally split up time into rounds and the like outside of combat.

Page 143 of the PHB shows that you can walk 30' in one full round, or hustle 60' in one full round, or run 120 ft in one full round. How do we know it's one full round and not one move action? Because the 'hustle' figure on that table is 60', the same as a 'double move', which takes one full round.

Since you accept that hustling 60' is a full-round action, what is the problem with walking 30' also being a full-round action? What more in the way of explanation and reasoning does there need to be?

Will you now say that by walking, you are moving half the normal rate? Your argument seems to hinge on hustling being the 'normal' movement rate, and at the risk of repeating myself, I do not agree that it is. I would like to see your explanation and reasoning regarding this assumption.

If a human rogue was going to move silently outside of combat, how fast could he go without taking a penalty? 150'/minute or 300'/minute?

If he is able to travel at 300'/minute, then obviously you think their 'normal' speed is a hustle - why then can't he keep up this so-called 'normal' speed for more than an hour when traveling normally? It doesn't seem very 'normal' to me.

If you say that they can only go 150'/minute outside of combat, then why does our sneaky friend suddenly speed up to twice as fast as soon as rounds begin being counted, with no corresponding penalty to his skill roll? Why can't he move that quickly outside of combat with no penalty? Does that make any sense at all?

J

 

[IceBear]

I have no problem with him speeding up in combat as it offsets the Listen penalty that the people in combat would have

I know, that's stretching it, but I'd rather stick with a common way of handling movement in combat than having to tell the rogue that if you want to move silently in combat you HAVE to move for the entire round (even if he only wants to creep up 5ft and pick someone's pocket).

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

you do not generally split up time into rounds and the like outside of combat.

Walking in or out of combat is not mutually exclusive. AFAIK, the rules don't change.

Since you accept that hustling 60' is a full-round action,

No, I don't accept this. Hustling is a double-move, not a full-round action (page 142 of the PH).

what is the problem with walking 30' also being a full-round action?

Because hustling is not a full-round action.

What more in the way of explanation and reasoning does there need to be?

You need to explain how hustling is a full-round action. If you can do that, I might be able to see your point of view, but right now, your point of view seems to be based upon an incorrect assumption regarding a hustle.

Does that make any sense at all?

Not really. I'm trying to understand your point of view though.

 

[The Souljourner]

OK, KR, a Hustle is not a full round action. It's just two MEAs. It doesn't matter, the long and short of it is, all you can do for the round is move. You can't do anything else except what you can do during a MEA.

Our point is that while doing overland movement, you're assumed to be continually walking. Since you're not stopping every 3 seconds to drink a potion, dance a jig, or whatever, you're obviously taking two move equivalent actions at a walking speed.

So... the guy walking is doing nothing but walking. By your definition, the guy who is supposed to be moving slowly is going to keep right up with the guy doing nothing but walking, and that's the problem we have.

-Nate, aka The Souljourner

 

[IceBear]

OK, KR, a Hustle is not a full round action. It's just two MEAs. It doesn't matter, the long and short of it is, all you can do for the round is move. You can't do anything else except what you can do during a MEA.

Our point is that while doing overland movement, you're assumed to be continually walking. Since you're not stopping every 3 seconds to drink a potion, dance a jig, or whatever, you're obviously taking two move equivalent actions at a walking speed.

So... the guy walking is doing nothing but walking. By your definition, the guy who is supposed to be moving slowly is going to keep right up with the guy doing nothing but walking, and that's the problem we have.

-Nate, aka The Souljourner

No he's not. You're comparing apples and oranges again. We're saying he moves at half speed. We aren't saying that one person is moving 30ft per round (without using Move actions) and the other is going to use Move actions).

If the person isn't moving silently, he's going to take two move actions (and end up moving 60ft) as opposed to only moving 30ft.

Yes, I know the PHB says you walk 30ft per round. But since the description of move silently says you move at half SPEED, then I see that as walking silently 15ft per round OR - if we're using combat actions - 15 per action.

We aren't saying to compare apples to oranges. It doesn't make sense to me that in combat a thief that wants to move 5ft and pick someone's pocket can't because he must take a fullround action to do so (using your interpretation) or we end up with fractions of squares moved. As long as we stick with half *speed* then it's consistent.

BTW - I do realize that there is an inconsistency with only saying you can move 15ft per round out of combat and 30ft per round in combat, but I can live with it and can rationalize it away by saying the penalty for moving faster is offset by the penalty for hearing in combat.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

OK, KR, a Hustle is not a full round action.

That's right. It's important to know the distinction between the two.

It doesn't matter

I think it certainly matters in a rules discussion.

the long and short of it is, all you can do for the round is move.

There is no basis in the rules for this assumption.

You can't do anything else except what you can do during a MEA.

And one of the things you can do when you take a move is take another move. You can even take two MEAs.

Our point is that while doing overland movement, you're assumed to be continually walking. Since you're not stopping every 3 seconds to drink a potion, dance a jig, or whatever, you're obviously taking two move equivalent actions at a walking speed.

So... the guy walking is doing nothing but walking.

That's right.

By your definition, the guy who is supposed to be moving slowly...

The point is that he is in fact moving more slowly. He has to perform a double move to move the same distance that someone can cover in half the time. What situation you are in, combat or not, is completely irrelevant.

...is going to keep right up with the guy doing nothing but walking...

Then it's quite obvious that you can only walk when you are trying to move silently without penalty.

...and that's the problem we have.

If you have a problem with the guy who's doing nothing but walking being paced by a rogue who is walking silently, then the guy who is just walking needs to move faster. This isn't a rule breaking issue. Why? Because the rogue can't move any faster without penalty. There's your balance.

 

[drnuncheon]

No, I don't accept this. Hustling is a double-move, not a full-round action (page 142 of the PH).

And a double move takes how long? One full round.

Because hustling is not a full-round action.

Hustling 60' (a 'double move') most certainly is a full round action. It takes a full round, and you can take no other actions that round except free actions. Do you have a different definition of a full round action than that one?

The essential question here, which you are continually avoiding is:
Is move silently slower than a walk?

I ask once again, how fast can someone move silently outside of combat?

Is their 'normal' speed outside of combat considered their walking speed? Do they not them move at half of their walking speed when attempting to move silently?

If 'normal' speed is not walking speed, why not?

If it is, then why can they suddenly become (relative) speed demons as soon as initiative is rolled?

J

 

[The Souljourner]

quote:Originally posted by The Souljourner
the long and short of it is, all you can do for the round is move.

Originally posted by KReynolds
There is no basis in the rules for this assumption.

I'm talking about the guy doing overland movement here, walking 30' per round. In order to walk 30' per round you have to take two move actions per round, which leaves exactly 0 time left for anything else. Do we agree on this?

If you have a problem with the guy who's doing nothing but walking being paced by a rogue who is walking silently, then the guy who is just walking needs to move faster. This isn't a rule breaking issue. Why? Because the rogue can't move any faster without penalty. There's your balance.

Well, I guess that's where we differ. We assume "half speed" means "half as fast as a guy not moving silently". Otherwise, why bother putting that in there? Why wouldn't they say "no faster than walking speed"?

The penalty for moving silently isn't "unable to move faster without penalty", it's "has to move slower". Says so in the rule.

I don't think we're going to get any further on this. I still think you're wrong, you still think we're wrong. *shrug*

-Nate, aka The Souljourner

 

[kreynolds]

Hustling 60' (a 'double move') most certainly is a full round action.

No. It's not. Read on to find out why.

Hustling 60' (a 'double move') most certainly is a full round action. It takes a full round, and you can take no other actions that round except free actions. Do you have a different definition of a full round action than that one?

The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step. This is a basic function of the rules. A double-move is not a full-round action in any way. It is simply a double-move. The fact that it takes you an entire round does not make it a full-round action. In fact, you can move more than your normal speed, say 60 feet, and still make an attack at the end of it. It's called a charge. Is a charge a full-round action? No. It's a special standard action (page 124 of the PH).

The essential question here, which you are continually avoiding is:

I'm not avoiding anything. There's no reason for you to be rude.

Is move silently slower than a walk?

No. You cover the same distance if you perform a double move.

I ask once again, how fast can someone move silently outside of combat?

Whether you are in or out of combat makes no difference at all. The rules don't change. That's my point.

Is their 'normal' speed outside of combat considered their walking speed?

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal".

If they perform a double-move, then yes, they're walking speed is 30 feet. If they don't perform a double move, then they need to perform a mini-hustle every round to maintain a movement rate of 30 feet per round. If neither of these is correct, the overland movement rate charts are incorrect.

If 'normal' speed is not walking speed, why not?

Like I said, I'm not sure what you mean by "normal". If by "normal speed" you mean the distance you can cover with a move action, such as me having a movement rate of 30, which allows me to move 30 feet along with a standard action, or cover 24 miles a day moving half that speed using a double-move every round, then yes.

If it is, then why can they suddenly become (relative) speed demons as soon as initiative is rolled?

When you move and perform a standard action, you are performing a mini-hustle. This is stated in the rules. I'm not sure I answered your question though.