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D&D 5E Moving out of concealment to attack - when is stealth broken?

The whole idea that combatants are aware in a 360 degree field of vision at all times is just...so backward and terrible.

I don’t want facing rules, but I draw the line at pretending that the completely absurd notion that an engaged combatant is hard to sneak up on makes any sense.
I think your concerns are a bit... exaggerated.

The PHB (p177) says:
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
I certainly don't read that as "360 degree field of vision at all times". Does anyone?
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think your concerns are a bit... exaggerated.

The PHB (p177) says:

I certainly don't read that as "360 degree field of vision at all times". Does anyone?
I don’t see nitpicking as having value.

the phb rules are backward. perception should have disad in combat.
 



Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Irrelevant to a discussion of what the rules should be.
Except that the rule is:
Consider granting advantage when …​
  • Circumstances not related to a creature’s inherent capabilities provide it with an edge.
  • Some aspect of the environment contributes to the character’s chance of success.
  • A player shows exceptional creativity or cunning in attempting or describing a task.
  • Previous actions (whether taken by the character making the attempt or some other creature) improve the chances of success.
Consider imposing disadvantage when …​
  • Circumstances hinder success in some way.
  • Some aspect of the environment makes success less likely (assuming that aspect doesn’t already impose a penalty to the roll being made).
  • An element of the plan or description of an action makes success less likely.
I other words, if you think combat should grant disadvantage on a perception check then it should.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Except that the rule is:
Consider granting advantage when …​
  • Circumstances not related to a creature’s inherent capabilities provide it with an edge.
  • Some aspect of the environment contributes to the character’s chance of success.
  • A player shows exceptional creativity or cunning in attempting or describing a task.
  • Previous actions (whether taken by the character making the attempt or some other creature) improve the chances of success.
Consider imposing disadvantage when …​
  • Circumstances hinder success in some way.
  • Some aspect of the environment makes success less likely (assuming that aspect doesn’t already impose a penalty to the roll being made).
  • An element of the plan or description of an action makes success less likely.
I other words, if you think combat should grant disadvantage on a perception check then it should.
No, the relevant rule is that by default, a creature in combat is aware of their surroundings, which is nonsense. It takes effort, active focus, and usually training, to be aware of your surroundings in a fight. The default is exactly opposite reality.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
No, the relevant rule is that by default, a creature in combat is aware of their surroundings, which is nonsense. It takes effort, active focus, and usually training, to be aware of your surroundings in a fight. The default is exactly opposite reality.
Which can be adjusted as the DM sees fit. Like all the stealth rules, by design it's left in the hands of the DM.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Which can be adjusted as the DM sees fit. Like all the stealth rules, by design it's left in the hands of the DM.
Which is irrelevant to anything I’ve said.

Now, why are you getting bent about my offhand comment about a rule I don’t like?
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Which is irrelevant to anything I’ve said.

Now, why are you getting bent about my offhand comment about a rule I don’t like?
I'm ... not. Just saying that if the DM thinks there should be disadvantage there is. The stealth rules are left vague so that the DM can make decisions that make sense in the moment. 🤷‍♂️
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm ... not. Just saying that if the DM thinks there should be disadvantage there is. The stealth rules are left vague so that the DM can make decisions that make sense in the moment. 🤷‍♂️
Then why do you keep replying to me to make points that aren’t relevant to what I said, to try and explain things I’ve shown no ignorance of, that don’t inform what I commented on in any way?
 

auburn2

Explorer
I think your concerns are a bit... exaggerated.

The PHB (p177) says:

I certainly don't read that as "360 degree field of vision at all times". Does anyone?
Not all at once, but over a turn yes. They are turning their head back and forth and scanning the battlefield a lot faster than someone walking could sneak up on them.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Then why do you keep replying to me to make points that aren’t relevant to what I said, to try and explain things I’ve shown no ignorance of, that don’t inform what I commented on in any way?
I was clarifying the rules for anyone reading the thread. Not sure why that bothers you.
 


auburn2

Explorer
the phb rules are backward. perception should have disad in combat.
Passive perception or active perception? If we are using logic, passive perception should have advantage in combat as your senses are heightened. You are literally fighting for your life and your senses are heightened.

You should have disadvantage on passive perception when you are in the 7th hour of your watch at the guard post and dreaming about what you are going to do with your girlfriend when you get off in an hour.

If it was active perception I could understand your logic, it is harder to actively search while blocking, dodging etc.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I was clarifying the rules for anyone reading the thread. Not sure why that bothers you.
You were replying to me, with responses that didn’t relate to my posts that you were quoting.

IME, people do that when they are bothered by what they’re replying to, not just at random, for no reason.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Passive perception or active perception? If we are using logic, passive perception should have advantage in combat as your senses are heightened. You are literally fighting for your life and your senses are heightened.

You should have disadvantage on passive perception when you are in the 7th hour of your watch at the guard post and dreaming about what you are going to do with your girlfriend when you get off in an hour.

If it was active perception I could understand your logic, it is harder to actively search while blocking, dodging etc.
Ive been in some fights. I also have many friends who have been in actual combat.

Your senses are narrowed, and difficult to master, in a fight. You are much less likely to notice someone sneak up on you, and will notice more detail within your narrowed field of vision.
 

auburn2

Explorer
Which is...just wild.
I am in the Navy and I think of it like being on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier during flight operations. The flight deck is a dangerous environment. You have all kinds of threats, you can be blown overboard, sucked into an intake, chopped up by an E-2 propellor, walk off the flight deck and fall into the catwalk .... There is a term we use "keep your head on a swivel" because if you are paying too much attention and concentrating on that Hornet that is turning and about to blast you with his jet exhaust you are going to miss the other Hornet that is about to run you over. So that is what you are doing - while you are doing whatever your job is you are at the same time constantly scanning 360 degrees for other "threats". This is a trained behavior, not a natural one.

We are not talking about a duel or gladiator arena, and as such, I would imagine trained fighters in combat are going to do the same thing, constantly search for new threats.
 
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auburn2

Explorer
Ive been in some fights. I also have many friends who have been in actual combat.

Your senses are narrowed, and difficult to master, in a fight. You are much less likely to notice someone sneak up on you, and will notice more detail within your narrowed field of vision.
You are assuming that such fighters have no reason to think someone is sneaking up on them. They are assuming someone is trying to do exactly that, they are going to be looking for that and as you said will notice more when they do.

You are also missing that training is used specifically and purposely to counter this. It is difficult to reason effectively under stress, so through practice and training you develop muscle memory and practiced behaviors to do what you intend.

Comparing it to modern combat - your footwork if shooting while moving and your sight picture are examples of this. You practice it over and over again so it is second nature and you don't need to think about it when you are in a gunfight. I would think a fantasy combatant scanning for enemies sneaking up on you would be the same.
 
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