D&D 5E (2024) Multi-Cantrip Build: 3 / round with BS Extra Attack, EK War Magic and Haste? (5 with Action Surge?)

[Silam]

And no, it's not overpowered anymore. They fixed it so you can't use Eldritch Blast.

So... I was thinking about this again, and was wondering: did they really fix it?

The Bladesinger and the EK both mention that their ability only works with Wizard cantrips. The Valor Bard, however, says:

Level 6: Extra Attack​

You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.

So it seems to work with any cantrip, including Eldrith Blast.

That's only once per attack, not twice, but still... that means a Valor Bard 6, Fighter 2, Warlock X could use Action Surge to perform 2 Eldritch Blast and 2 more regular attacks. Probably not game breaking, but still interesting...?

 

[mellored]

So... I was thinking about this again, and was wondering: did they really fix it?

The Bladesinger and the EK both mention that their ability only works with Wizard cantrips. The Valor Bard, however, says:.

But you can't stack multiple EB anymore.

EB + 1 attack isn't broken. Especially since you trade off your highest spell level for it. Fighter is still doing more damage.

 

[Silam]

But you can't stack multiple EB anymore.

EB + 1 attack isn't broken. Especially since you trade off your highest spell level for it. Fighter is still doing more damage.

Well, you can't stack it as much as the other build, but you could still do quite a few more than 1?

Let's say you have a Valor Bard 6, Fighter 2, Sorc 5 (or more...), Warlock X

Then in your opening round, you can do something along the lines: Quickened Haste with your Bonus Action, Haste Action to cast 1 EB, regular Attack action to do 1 EB + 1 attack, Action Surge to do another 1 EB + 1 attack.

So that's still like, 3 EBs + 2 attacks in one round, and 2 EBs + 2 attacks in the subsequent rounds (no more Action Surge).

Again, I'm sure that's not the most powerful build out there, but I imagine it's significantly more powerful than doing a single EB per round...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Assuming there is no flaw in the above logic, I am interested to explore the implications of this quirky build...

It certainly should raise some red flags as even if it's RAW, it probably isn't RAI... but I don't necessarily think it's overpowered either.

At 13th level, I bet there are quite a few builds more powerful than BS6, EK7. Even if constraining to a gish build, a BS13 or Bard of Valor 13 are probably more powerful than this very fragmented progression?

But I guess it's interesting in the (potentially narrow) context of campaigns with an emphasis on endurance. Like, not one of those campaigns where you take a long rest between each battle. Rather, one of those campaigns where it's not even possible at all to take a long rest in the middle of a dungeon (you'll just be interrupted indefinitely during those 8 hours, until TPK). For those type of endurance based campaigns, it becomes a weaker argument to say that "at high levels, a wizard has enough slots for every single round that they'll fight in a day, and therefore it's always a bad idea to spend a round on cantrips or attack actions, rather than spending slots" (which is a fairly decent argument for a non-endurance kind of game).

So if you think of it with the above frame of mind, what kind of cantrips would you have in your roster, if on most rounds you were slinging 2 or 3 of them, and only occasionally spending slots? Some that come to mind for me:

• For the gish flavor:
  • True Strike
  • Booming Blade
  • Green-Flame Blade (these two haven't been updated for 2024, right?)
• For protection:
  • Blade Ward (if you chose not to use Haste for that battle, and therefore have your concentration available)
• Tactical:
  • Shocking Grasp
  • Mind Sliver (does this stack? seems like it)... you could potentially impose a 3d4 penalty on the next save (EDIT: no, it wouldn’t stack, but could still be intetesting to throw in to "prime" the target before spending a precious slot next round), or at least get a better shot that at least one of the saves fail.
• Any of the long range attacks:
  • Fire Bolt, etc.
• AoE:
  • Thunderclap

What else?

Also good for campaigns where the wizard absolutely needs to prepare and use non-ritual utility spells in order to not be a burden outside of combat, which is how i run the game.

But still not OP, tbh. My Rogue6/BS6 is scarier in combat even with fewer attacks and only 1 cantrip (2 when hasted, often "prepare booming blade when X enemy acts" to get an extra sneak attack), and BA magic item use, for instance.

 

[Silam]

Also good for campaigns where the wizard absolutely needs to prepare and use non-ritual utility spells in order to not be a burden outside of combat, which is how i run the game.

But still not OP, tbh. My Rogue6/BS6 is scarier in combat even with fewer attacks and only 1 cantrip (2 when hasted, often "prepare booming blade when X enemy acts" to get an extra sneak attack), and BA magic item use, for instance.

Yep. Thief 3 seems very strong, though of course it depends on what kind of magic items you can get your hands on. But assuming you have a few good wands handy, those BAs can really go a long way. Or else, just craft scrolls and do like Colby’s Doom Scroller build.

 

[mellored]

Well, you can't stack it as much as the other build, but you could still do quite a few more than 1?

Let's say you have a Valor Bard 6, Fighter 2, Sorc 5 (or more...), Warlock X

Then in your opening round, you can do something along the lines: Quickened Haste with your Bonus Action, Haste Action to cast 1 EB, regular Attack action to do 1 EB + 1 attack, Action Surge to do another 1 EB + 1 attack.

So that's still like, 3 EBs + 2 attacks in one round, and 2 EBs + 2 attacks in the subsequent rounds (no more Action Surge).

Again, I'm sure that's not the most powerful build out there, but I imagine it's significantly more powerful than doing a single EB per round...

3*3(d10+5)+2*(2d8+5) = 113.5
* 60% = 61.3
Vs
Straight sorcerer with finger of death = 7d8+30= 61.5
* 60% + (40%*.5) = 49.2
Vs
Fighter, crossbow expetise Great Weapon Master, archery style
2*3(1d10+5+5) = 93
* 70% = 65.1

So yea, straight Fighter is a bit ahead. And I didn't even add in Studied Attacks. Or the fact you can swap to slow after you push, have higher initiative, and Eldritch Blaster is counting a subclass feature (i.e. 18-20 crit range for champion). Also, losing concentration on Haste is risky, especially when your low on feats. And fighters benifit more from having a magic weapon.

I didn't adding bardic inspiration either, and the sorlock has lots of utility spells and some healing. So it's really ends up balanced. Trading a little damage for a bit of utility and support.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yep. Thief 3 seems very strong, though of course it depends on what kind of magic items you can get your hands on. But assuming you have a few good wands handy, those BAs can really go a long way. Or else, just craft scrolls and do like Colby’s Doom Scroller build.

Yep, it is really fun having a bandolier of scrolls or wands, so much so I might change my hand crossbow to a light crossbow or use the fact the DM allows proficiency training and I picked up heavy crossbows to really max my long range game. As an alchemist and tinker I have been putting alchemists fire, acid, holy water, and more recently explosives, in my arrows for a while. Doing so with a heavy crossbow and BA hide/dash/scroll/wand, and I will be pretty scary.

I didn't do so before because my wife was playing an archery ranger so I actually gave most of my alchemist ammo to her, and mostly just used acid for me, but she has semi-retired that character to lead and train the small paramilitary group we formed to fight demons, and has brought in a sea elf Spirits Bard, so...I can go ham on the ranged weapon stuff.

Time to look at what wizard spells I can use to enhance myself when focused on range...

 

[Silam]

Time to look at what wizard spells I can use to enhance myself when focused on range...

Well, a wand of fireball can always be a good supplement in any shootout. Makes me think of the guy with the grenade launcher in Predator’s wall of lead scene

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, a wand of fireball can always be a good supplement in any shootout. Makes me think of the guy with the grenade launcher in Predator’s wall of lead scene

Hahaha true. Very true.

Could use the bastion to enspell a heavy crossbow with scorching ray, as well.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep. Thief 3 seems very strong, though of course it depends on what kind of magic items you can get your hands on. But assuming you have a few good wands handy, those BAs can really go a long way. Or else, just craft scrolls and do like Colby’s Doom Scroller build.

Cartographer 3/scribe wizard 10+?
Or thief using scrolls of true strike.