Multi-casters, Mystic Theurges, & Epic-ness...

[Pax]

I think it'd be worthwhile to try it out, James. Tonight, I'll see what sort of Epic Theurge characters I can work up "in brief", and us GMs can debate the finer points of (im)balance ... ^_^

 

[pawsplay]

Mystic Theurge should get full progression at epic levels. You're already down three caster levels. They get nothing else. Advancing past 20th level affects only caster checks and spell effects, there is no spells/day progression. The published version, I think, only confirms that the Mystic Theurge is despised by at least one WotC staffer.

 

[Vargo]

Mystic Theurge should get full progression at epic levels. You're already down three caster levels. They get nothing else. Advancing past 20th level affects only caster checks and spell effects, there is no spells/day progression. The published version, I think, only confirms that the Mystic Theurge is despised by at least one WotC staffer.

Something to think about is that by 26th level, a Mystic Theurge will have access to the complete spell list of both Clerics and Wizards, along with more spells per day than any other caster combination. By 28th level, they will have the spells of both a 20th level Cleric and a 20th level Wizard.

Not too shabby, IMO.

 

[Salthorae]

Epic Progression

Something to think about is that by 26th level, a Mystic Theurge will have access to the complete spell list of both Clerics and Wizards, along with more spells per day than any other caster combination. By 28th level, they will have the spells of both a 20th level Cleric and a 20th level Wizard.

If we go with the initial progression
1-3 wiz
4-6 cler
7-16 MT
17,18 cler
19,20 wiz

and then go to the Epic MT progression:

Spells:When an odd numbered MT level above 10 is gained (11th, 13th..etc) she gains new spells per day...in an arcane class up to the maxinum spells/day and known by that class (i.e. 20th) caster level increases by +1
When an even-numbered MT level above 10th is gained (12th, 14th...) it's as if she gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she previously possessed, up to her maximum spell/day and spells known by that class (i.e. 20th)
Feats: an epic MT gains a bonus feat every 6th level

so if you take levels 21-30 as an MT only at level 30 would you have all the spells of both wizard and cleric (i.e. cast spells as a 20th level in both classes) with a caster level of 30....and you'd pretty much have to take a new class at that point as the caster levels will increase but your spellcasting ability would not anymore

 

[ruleslawyer]

Mystic Theurge should get full progression at epic levels. You're already down three caster levels. They get nothing else. Advancing past 20th level affects only caster checks and spell effects, there is no spells/day progression. The published version, I think, only confirms that the Mystic Theurge is despised by at least one WotC staffer.

Er, maybe. The difference between a Wiz7/Clr3/MT20 (more likely, Wiz3/Clr3/MT20/Acm4) and a Wiz30 in terms of spellcasting ability if you used full progression wouldn't be too great. Most spells max out at or before 25th caster level, and spellcasting ability maxes out at 20th level, so the MT would get the following advantages:

1) TWICE the spell slots (that, BTW, is a really big deal; the MyTh would have twice the 9th-level spells of the straight wizard, which is a serious asset in combat OR utility situations)
2) TWICE the number of epic spells (since Epic Spellcasting is usable by both the wizard and cleric "halves" of the MyTh)
3) Arcane-divine powerplay combos (some of which are very nasty, as we all know)
4) Domain powers and divine feat access

And the following disadvantages:

1) 15% lower chance of overcoming SR
2) Fewer bonus feats (3 fewer non-epic, 2 fewer epic, no Familiar Spell bonus feat)

That seems balanced to me... barely. It's really the lower number of epic bonus feats that keeps the MyTh balanced with its single-classed counterpart.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Er, maybe. The difference between a Wiz7/Clr3/MT20 (more likely, Wiz3/Clr3/MT20/Acm4) and a Wiz30 in terms of spellcasting ability if you used full progression wouldn't be too great. Most spells max out at or before 25th caster level, and spellcasting ability maxes out at 20th level, so the MT would get the following advantages:

...

That seems balanced to me... barely. It's really the lower number of epic bonus feats that keeps the MyTh balanced with its single-classed counterpart.

The problem is that picking up almost any other pair of PrCs for epic would serve you far better.

 

[aurance]

Problem is, there are two groups of mechanics to address here with all primary casters in D&D, and if you address one satisfactorily you push the other too far. That's why there's no good answer.

1. Defeating SR, dispel checks.
2. Spell access.

If your campaign doesn't feature #1 very much, MT would be fine with having 1/2 progression at epic.

If #1 is a major issue in your campaign, however, MT must remain a constant level behind in order to remain a viable caster. But this takes spell access too far.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem is that picking up almost any other pair of PrCs for epic would serve you far better.

I don't know about that. IMHO, the easiest way to think about MT from a balance perspective is as a standard +1 caster level PrC (e.g., loremaster, mystic wanderer, etc.) with a very steep entry requirement (forced multiclassing) and a "special ability" of 1 level of cleric spellcasting per PrC level. Thus, you get 10 levels of cleric spellcasting as opposed to, say, a few loremaster secrets or some nifty elemental focus or summoning abilities. That 10 levels of spellcasting would be quite overpowered as a class ability if it weren't for the fact that you lost three caster levels to get them. At epic levels, OTOH, you're giving up one epic bonus feat every three levels (in comparison to the wizard and cleric) in exchange for three caster levels of cleric. That's not bad compared to what most caster PrCs get, which is either a 1/3 level bonus feat progression and NO abilities or some relatively minor abilities and a slower bonus feat progression.

A better comparison would be a Wiz3/Clr3/MT17/Acm4 (CL 27) to a Wiz5/PrC17/Acm5 (CL 27), with "PrC" presumably being something like loremaster. (I'm reluctant to bring up incantatrix because NOTHING looks good by comparison to that PrC, and thus it is, after all, overpowered.) The MT takes three Spell Power high arcana to boost his wizard caster level to par with a straight wizard, and has one left over (probably for arcane reach, which can be used with all of the MT's spells, including (urk) harm). So what do we have now?

Wiz/PrC:
1) 1 bonus feat (Wiz5)
2) Four extra archmage high arcana
3) 10 levels of PrC abilities (some loremaster secrets, perhaps)
4) 1 epic bonus feat or extended epic PrC abilities (unlikely)

MT:
1) Domain abilities
2) 20 levels of cleric spellcasting

I dunno. Are 10 levels of PrC abilities, 1 bonus feat, 1 epic bonus feat, and four archmage high arcana worth 20 levels of cleric casting? From a raw power perspective, probably, but from a versatility perspective, I'd say that an MT would be the best thing going.

Keep in mind that the best tack for an MT, if you houserule a +1/+1 progression, would be to switch over to an epic caster PrC (arcane lord from Dragon 297 is one option; cosmic descryer, elven high mage, or something else might work too) immediately after hitting MT17. That way, you get epic bonus feats, nifty new PrC abilities, and scale just like the single-classed casters do from CL 27 on.

 

[pawsplay]

My point is that you don't even need Epic MT levels to max out casting. If you advance to Wiz 3/Cle 3/MT 10, you hit a ceiling. From there, you go Archmage 3/Cleric 6. At 20th level, you have caster level 16 in each, plus six special Prestige abilities. Not too bad.

So what really lies in the future of an Epic Mystic Theurge? More MT levels get you, basically, Feats, since you're 4 levels away from maximum casting anyway. You have the choice between 1 Feat every three levels, for the MT, or alternating Archmage and Cleric levels and instead getting class abilities.

Continuing to grant the Mystic Theurge with full progression gets you spell penetration and caster checks. It gets you no additional slots.

Problem is, there are two groups of mechanics to address here with all primary casters in D&D, and if you address one satisfactorily you push the other too far.

Not true in this case, for the reason I just described. Epic caster level progression only affects spell penetration and caster checks. It would solely allows the MT to remain competitive, to continue to use his abilities against foes of the appropriate CR.

Under the current setup, I'd be inclined to go Wiz 5/Cle 10/MT 10/Arch5, then start working on some Heirophant levels.