D&D 5E (2014) Multi-Class Alternative Using Sub-Classes

[Wulffolk]

The Rogue/Wizard is not an Arcane Trickster. It gives up the Mage Hand gimmick for access to an Arcane Tradition. You could have a Rogue/Necromancer, or Rogue/Evoker, or Rogue/Conjurer, etc.

 

[Aldarc]

The Rogue/Wizard is not an Arcane Trickster. It gives up the Mage Hand gimmick for access to an Arcane Tradition. You could have a Rogue/Necromancer, or Rogue/Evoker, or Rogue/Conjurer, etc.

That still leaves me worried about your subclassed Rogue/Wizard outclassing the standard Arcane Trickster.

 

[Wulffolk]

I don't see how the R/W would be outclassing the AT.
At 3rd level a R/W would have the basics of a Wizard instead of Mage Hand Legerdemain.
At 9th level a R/W would have the 2nd level Tradition benefit instead of Magical Ambush.
At 13th level the R/W would get War Caster instead of Versatile Trickster.
And at 17th level the R/W would get the 6th level Tradition benefit rather than Spell Thief.
If anything the AT is still better for an optimizer, while the R/W gives more options for those that like more diversity.

 

[Xeviat]

Very interesting. I'll digest this at home when I'm not on my phone. I really like the idea of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Satyrn]

Are you gonna make a fighter/mage/thief possible? Elf, of course.

 

[Blue]

One of the problems with the way that multi-classing has worked since 3e came out has been that it encourages optimizers to dip into classes for front-loaded benefits without the character making any meaningful commitment to the class.

If you're going to present this as fact as opposed to opinion, an you please provide some collaborating evidence. I've been very happy that for the most part the PHB classes don't give out major boosts until 3rd level or higher. There are some decent things you can get at 2nd, and Cleric domains are the obvious outlier, but my experience is that it isn't a problem in 5e.

I miss the old days of characters starting out with multiple classes, like the: Cleric/Magic-User, Fighter/Cleric, Magic-User/Thief, Fighter/Thief, etc.

While dreaming up character concepts for 5e I found myself yearning for the ability to create a Sacred Fist (Monk/Cleric) that wasn't so watered-down as to be useless. One of the things I like about 5e is that the Players' Handbook came with a solution to this baked into the system. By using the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster as inspiration I have created numerous multi-class options that replace the standard sub-classes.

I really like having hand crafted subclasses like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, etc. They allow us to have a primary class and then touches of a second class hand crafted to that second class.

Though to me they aren't at all a replacement for the old Cleric/Magic-User or other combinations where you split your XP evenly and advanced in both classes. In those you'd often end up only a level or two behind and both classes really contributed to play and to your power. With the subclasses, it's one main class and the other flavoring it, but not near equally.

I am interested in hearing any feedback or constructive criticism. I did not include options for Clerics because the Domains are vital to a Cleric and give enough options to cover many options. I left out Paladins because they should be focused on fulfilling their Oaths. Warlocks are left out because they need a Patron to make sense, and Sorcerers because they need their Origin.

One problem is the number of combinations. In order to hand craft the combonations, there is little overlap. The Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster both bring in some Wizard, but besides the common 1/3 casting neither handles it the same, giving it a different spin to meet the main class. Same if you compare Eldritch Knight to Blade Singer - very different classes, no design overlap in the subclasses. So what we'd be looking at is 12 classes each with 11 subclasses, so 132 subclasses just to cover "primary plus a bit of another class" multiclassing. It wouldn't cover variations in the classes themselves, like different types of sorcerers or clerics or whatever in that 132. And that still leaves out "I want the classes to be relatively even" like the cleric/magic-user combos that are you goal, and forbid the number of combos if you wanted a triple class like the classic Fighter/Magic-User/Thief.

The multiclass system is an elegant way to handle generic mixing and handles different amounts, with 5e doing a decent job or removing cherry-picking though giving things at later levels and moving back getting ASIs.

While I will like well crafted subclasses to hit a specific feel, I think it would be a lot of bloat to try and mimic a multiclass system using subclasses.

 

[Blue]

These seem to miss the whole point of the "other class" subclasses in that you craft the powers of that other class around the focus of the main class. It's a cohesive combination of the whole - it needs to be because it's a single class.

I don't want a barbarian with some bard powers. I want a Skald who's mechanics uses their song to spread their rage to others.

I don't want a barbarian who also casts some sorcerer spells if they happen not to be raging, I want a Rage Caster who's burning hot rage not only allows but empowers direct damage, but maybe they are at their strongest if done ranged touch.

 

[Wulffolk]

If you're going to present this as fact as opposed to opinion, an you please provide some collaborating evidence.

Fine, that was my opinion. You are free to disagree.

Most of your other expectations are outside of the scope of my original intention.

 

[Blue]

Most of your other expectations are outside of the scope of my original intention.

*cough* Oh, okay. No problems. Then I have some ... erm, absolutely new points that I never made before, nope. And I'll quote your original post so you don't have to waste time checking if they are in scope.

I miss the old days of characters starting out with multiple classes, like the: Cleric/Magic-User, Fighter/Cleric, Magic-User/Thief, Fighter/Thief, etc.

To me subclasses aren't at all a replacement for the old Cleric/Magic-User or other combinations where you split your XP evenly and advanced in both classes. In those you'd often end up only a level or two behind in each and both classes really contributed to play and to your power. With the subclasses, it's one main class and the other flavoring it, but not near equally. It doesn't seem like going subclasses meets your goal. (Assuming you are balanced vs. the existing classes, which I'm assuming you are suggesting.)

By using the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster as inspiration I have created numerous multi-class options that replace the standard sub-classes.

A problem with this is the number of combinations. Assuming you only address 2-class multiclassing, that's 12 classes * 11 other-classes for 132 subclasses. And that's before subclasses about the primary class itself like types of clerics or sorcerers or what-have-you. That's a lot of balancing and bloat to duplicate the already existing and more compact multiclassing rules. Or you can do a lot less combos - and then have big gaps that we still need a multiclass system to cover.

Again, I like the PHB subclasses that cross lines and would welcome more, they craft combinations of "how could we add a bit of X to Y and still keep it thematic". I'd welcome more of those. I just don't see it working either as a replacement for the 5e multiclass system or as a replacement for the AD&D-type multiple classes splitting XP type of multiclassing.

 

[Blue]

Wizard (Full Caster, spell-casting classes just add to spell list, not the total spell slots available)

Wizard/ Cleric
2^nd- Spellcasting Focus (Divine), Religion Skill
6^th- Channel Divinity, Domain (all 1^stand 2^ndlevel Domain benefits)
10^th- Domain (6^thlevel benefits)
14^th- Domain (8^thlevel benefits), Destroy Undead (½ CR)

Can you explain what you mean by "spell-casting classes just add to spell list, not the total spell slots available"

The direct read seem to say you have the spell list of a wizard and cleric but no slots to cast it, which would just be pointless.

But the other way to read it is that you have full casting as of your level, and full spell lists from both wizard and cleric to use in those slots. Which is OMG overpowered.

Am I missing another option?