Multiattack

[Dimwhit]

Multiattack is a great feat for Druids. Almost a must-have for combat-oriented, wild-shaping Druids.

 

[glass]

Yes, it's definitely a 'no'. Two can play at this game.

I'm not playing games. You were implying my postion was the opposite of what it was for no good reason, I was setting you straight!

Not true. You are not just making an assumption about when to level, but how long it takes and the process in which it is done. All these assumptions are not legitimate and any definitive statement on them is insubstantial at best.

There are various suggested varient rules about training for a new level, which would alter the situation somewhat. However, those are not core. In the core game, leveling doesn't mention a time requirement, so it doesn't take any time!

This is answered above.

Where? I was pointing out that your 'might be able to polymorph at some point in his life' argument was a straw man. I don't see want answer there could be to that (except perhaps 'sorry'), and I don't see any sort of answer to it.


glass.

 

[wuyanei]

Eh?

If they wish to take Multiattack, let them. Just like a 9 Str character with a +4 Str enhancement bonus item can take Power Attack -- he simply runs the chance of not being able to use the feat most of the time, thus wasting a valuable feat slot.

What is unbalancing about that?

 

[IcyCool]

Eh?

If they wish to take Multiattack, let them. Just like a 9 Str character with a +4 Str enhancement bonus item can take Power Attack -- he simply runs the chance of not being able to use the feat most of the time, thus wasting a valuable feat slot.

What is unbalancing about that?

Nothing, and this point isn't really addressed in the RAW. Items certainly appear to allow you to qualify for feats, but as always when you hit a gray area in the RAW, check with your GM. Or if you are the GM, do what you want.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm not playing games. You were implying my postion was the opposite of what it was for no good reason, I was setting you straight!

I did no such thing. Perhaps the way I responded was not clear. I merely intended to disagree and did not imply anything else by it.

There are various suggested varient rules about training for a new level, which would alter the situation somewhat. However, those are not core. In the core game, leveling doesn't mention a time requirement, so it doesn't take any time!

Note that time is secondary issue to the concept of 'when' you can level and the process in which it is done. None of which we agree that it's stated, so therefore you can't make a definitive statement.

Where? I was pointing out that your 'might be able to polymorph at some point in his life' argument was a straw man. I don't see want answer there could be to that (except perhaps 'sorry'), and I don't see any sort of answer to it.

There's a point and it's not a strawman at all. Let me explain in further detail, though, so there's no further misunderstanding.

The three points about leveling we have under contention here, as far as I see it, are given below.

1. WHEN - When do you level? Do you 'level up' (i.e. add bonuses, choose feats, etc.) immediately upon gaining the XP? Do you do it when the DM says? Can you do it whenever you feel like it?

2. HOW LONG - How long does it take to level up? Does it require training? Is it instantaneous? Is it even a move action? Can I cast a duration one round spell, level up during that spell, and thus be able to apply the spell's benefits to my levelling choices (re: my comment about polymorph)?

3. PROCESS - What process does levelling up take? More than just training, are you considered to be 'levelling up' during the whole level immediately prior to the new one? For the discussion at hand, this would mean that the druid needs to remain in her 3-attack form for quite a few adventures. This would also mean that using polymorph is not possible. Or, for levelling up purposes, is the last kill the only important part, not unlike a dikumud?

 

[Dimwhit]

The three points about leveling we have under contention here, as far as I see it, are given below.

1. WHEN - When do you level? Do you 'level up' (i.e. add bonuses, choose feats, etc.) immediately upon gaining the XP? Do you do it when the DM says? Can you do it whenever you feel like it?

2. HOW LONG - How long does it take to level up? Does it require training? Is it instantaneous? Is it even a move action? Can I cast a duration one round spell, level up during that spell, and thus be able to apply the spell's benefits to my levelling choices (re: my comment about polymorph)?

3. PROCESS - What process does levelling up take? More than just training, are you considered to be 'levelling up' during the whole level immediately prior to the new one? For the discussion at hand, this would mean that the druid needs to remain in her 3-attack form for quite a few adventures. This would also mean that using polymorph is not possible. Or, for levelling up purposes, is the last kill the only important part, not unlike a dikumud?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but...

If we're trying to adjudicate this according to the RAW, none of those three points are explained in the RAW and are therefore irrelevant to the discussion. The only real question is "Does the RAW allow you to take a feat for which you only meet the prerequisite some of the time." And honestly, I'm not sure the RAW addresses that, either.

My Druid not only took Multiattack, but he took Power Attack. He only has an 11 STR. But when he wildshapes, his STR is way up there, so he can use PA. Far as I know, this as allowed by the RAW, though I'd be happy to see something to the contrary.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If we're trying to adjudicate this according to the RAW, none of those three points are explained in the RAW and are therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

Actually, I'm saying that it's precisely because they're not explained in the RAW that makes them relevant to the discussion. What these points tell us is that how the DM rules on levelling up is vital to how one rules whether wildshape is an suitable prerequisite for feats.

glass's interpretation is valid for his interpretation for levelling up. I can't prove it wrong. It's invalid for my interpretation of levelling up, however, and he can't prove me wrong.

 

[IcyCool]

glass's interpretation is valid for his interpretation for levelling up. I can't prove it wrong. It's invalid for my interpretation of levelling up, however, and he can't prove me wrong.

A question was posed the last time this came up, and I don't believe anyone answered it. If you use a bastard sword (without appropriate proficiency) for most of your fights over your first level, but used a club for the rest of your fights, can you take feats that are specific to the bastard sword? How about the club? Why is it not the same with a druid who fights with three natural weapons for most of his fights over a level? Is your only point of contention that the druid/who-ever must have natural weapons when he levels up, and not that he must have had sufficient training?

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you use a bastard sword (without appropriate proficiency) for most of your fights over your first level, but used a club for the rest of your fights, can you take feats that are specific to the bastard sword? How about the club?

It depends on the prerequisites of the feats, but assuming you meet them, you could take either. Heck, if you've never even seen a dire flail before, you could take EWP(dire flail). There's no restriction on the prerequisite (besides the BAB +1 which we can assume is met). Do you really dispute this per the RAW?

Why is it not the same with a druid who fights with three natural weapons for most of his fights over a level?

Why would it be the same? The prerequisite on multiattack is "3 or more natural attacks" not BAB +1. Really, I don't understand the confusion on this.

Is your only point of contention that the druid/who-ever must have natural weapons when he levels up, and not that he must have had sufficient training?

I can't say whether I have a point of contention unless you tell me what we are debating. Let me know if you are discussing the rules (or lack thereof) on levelling up or the way I run it.

 

[glass]

I did no such thing. Perhaps the way I responded was not clear. I merely intended to disagree and did not imply anything else by it.

You implied that I agreed with you, but was too stupid to know the difference between 'yes' and 'no'.

As to your questions (and forgive me here as levelling up is not in the SRD I can't provide citations):

1. WHEN - When do you level? Do you 'level up' (i.e. add bonuses, choose feats, etc.) immediately upon gaining the XP? Do you do it when the DM says? Can you do it whenever you feel like it?

IIRC, you can explicitly do it whenever you feel like it, absent and varient or house rules to the contrary.

2. HOW LONG - How long does it take to level up? Does it require training? Is it instantaneous? Is it even a move action? Can I cast a duration one round spell, level up during that spell, and thus be able to apply the spell's benefits to my levelling choices (re: my comment about polymorph)?

The rules don't mention a time requirement. Therefore, it doesn't require any time.

3. PROCESS - What process does levelling up take? More than just training, are you considered to be 'levelling up' during the whole level immediately prior to the new one? For the discussion at hand, this would mean that the druid needs to remain in her 3-attack form for quite a few adventures. This would also mean that using polymorph is not possible. Or, for levelling up purposes, is the last kill the only important part, not unlike a dikumud?

You do lots of stuuf when levelling (assign skill points, choose feats, and an HD). If you were as you suggest levelling for the whol of the previous level, then you would be doing all of those thing for the whole of the previous level.

The RAW doesn't list any restrictions. This means, per the RAW, there aren't any restrictions. It doesn't mean you can make up whatever restrictions you feel like and call them RAW.

Obviously, as DM you can make up any restrictions you like, but at that point you are talking about house rules not RAW.


glass.