Multiattack

[Lord Pendragon]

So can the player not elect for the level-up process to occur at a time that the PC has three or more natural weapons?

No. Just like he can't elect to level up while under the effects of Fox's Cunning to take Combat Expertise. Just like a monk can't elect to level up while under the effects of Polymorph Any Object to pick up Improved Natural Attack. (And no, I don't want to get into that argument here. If you disagree with that ruling, then just ignore that example.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

No.

But it's a player decision, right?

Well, aside from that... let's say our Druid-8 levels to Druid-9 and takes Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) as a feat.

Then he wildshapes into a bear, and his friend the Psion uses the Psychic Reformation power on him, allowing him to choose a different feat from the one he selected when advancing from his previous level to his current level.

The power has a manifestation time of 10 minutes, and is instantaneous. For the whole ten minutes, the druid has three natural weapons. Can he swap Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) for Multiattack?

Let's say a Druid-7 levels to Druid-8 with exactly 28,000xp. Then he Wildshapes into a bear, and draws the Jester from a Deck of Many Things, gaining 10,000xp - sufficient to level to Druid-9.

For the entirety of the previous level (Druid-8), he had three natural weapons. Can he select Multiattack as his feat?

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

I disagree with your analogy of the 1st level fighter taking Improved Critical. Because, at the particular time he chooses the feat, he doesn't even have the potential of gaining BAB +8, any which way he cuts it. It is a completely unattainable prerequisite for him.

Whereas the fighter with Gloves of Dexterity +2, and Dexterity 12, certainly fulfils the prerequisite Dex 13+ to take Dodge. I don't believe he is wearing the gloves 24/7. Just as a Druid may shapechange. Once he has access to the shapechanging ability, he can (IMO) take certain feats the require him to be in another form to gain advantage of them, just as the Fighter is required to wear the gloves anytime he wants to use his Dodge feat..

To me the question of exactly when the levelling up occurs is completely irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the character could do it, if he so chose, and that is good enough for me. I wouldn't allow any cheesy ''lending'' of items between characters, though, as that implies metagame knowledge.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

To me the question of exactly when the levelling up occurs is completely irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the character could do it, if he so chose, and that is good enough for me. I wouldn't allow any cheesy ''lending'' of items between characters, though, as that implies metagame knowledge.

It implies exactly the same amount of metagame knowledge the druid has to have to change into a bear for level up.

Hyp, I don't play with psionics, so I don't really have to deal with whatever craziness is allowed through using them. As far as the Deck is concerned, I've never played with it, but considering your question

For the entirety of the previous level (Druid-8), he had three natural weapons. Can he select Multiattack as his feat?

I'm unsure about this one, but my gut tells me I'd allow it. The whole "instant xp" deal completely circumvents my idea of what levels are anyway, so I see no reason it couldn't instill Multiattack ability from out of nowhere, just as it could instill any other feat from out of nowhere.

I wouldn't be allowing it because he "had three natural weapons for the entirety of the previous level" though. That might be technically true but it certainly isn't practically true. I'd allow it because the Deck of Many Things is an artifact, and it can create knowledge out of thin air.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I wouldn't be allowing it because he "had three natural weapons for the entirety of the previous level" though.

Huh?

I'm not creating prerequisites. I'm requiring that the PC who wants to take a feat have those prerequisites continuously for an entire level before he can take the feat.

Edit to add: Let me try and put it another way. I don't require the druid to fight with three weapons in particular. He could have Natural Spell and earn all his xp by using his magic. The point is that he have three natural weapons for the length of the previous level, before he take Multiattack, because having three natural weapons is a prerequisite of the feat.

You said yourself that if a druid had three natural weapons for the length of the previous level, you'd allow him to take Multiattack!

What if a newly-levelled 5th level druid wildshapes into a wolverine, then enters into a huge, campaign-defining battle that lasts five hours, climaxing with the defeat of the BBEG who has been the PC's nemesis throughout the campaign to this point, resulting in an experience award of 5000xp to the druid? No artifacts involved, but for the length of the previous level, he had three natural weapons, which by the quote I've provided above in your own words is sufficient for you to allow him to take Multiattack.

Allowable?

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You said yourself that if a druid had three natural weapons for the length of the previous level, you'd allow him to take Multiattack!

As a House Rule, yes. And my previous post was in response to your contrivance with the xp gained from a Deck of Many Things. In that case, I'd disallow it based on the previous level, because the previous level wasn't spent learning anything...except that it's the Deck of Many Things. I figure the Deck's magic is instilling in the PC knowledge he never earned, i.e. xp that isn't actually experience. So I'd allow it.

Remember that my stance is, "it's not allowed per the RAW, but I allow it in some circumstances." I don't have any problem with the circumstances under which I allow it being inconsistent. They're based on each scenario independently, and whether I view the situation as reasonable or not.

What if a newly-levelled 5th level druid wildshapes into a wolverine, then enters into a huge, campaign-defining battle that lasts five hours, climaxing with the defeat of the BBEG who has been the PC's nemesis throughout the campaign to this point, resulting in an experience award of 5000xp to the druid? No artifacts involved, but for the length of the previous level, he had three natural weapons, which by the quote I've provided above in your own words is sufficient for you to allow him to take Multiattack.

You're creating scenarios that would never exist in my game, in order to impeach the rules I do use in my game, which seems counterproductive to me. If I introduced scenarios in which a PC could earn an entire level in a single combat, perhaps I'd have to rethink my reasoning for using the House Rule that I do, and just follow the RAW and disallow it altogether. This doesn't occur in my game, though, so I don't have to worry about it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I introduced scenarios in which a PC could earn an entire level in a single combat, perhaps I'd have to rethink my reasoning for using the House Rule that I do, and just follow the RAW and disallow it altogether.

If he's got three natural weapons when he levels, why is disallowing it considered following the RAW?

He meets the prerequisites at the time he takes the feat!

-Hyp.

 

[Musrum]

Leveling up is certainly intaneous as written.

A character going from Lvl 3 to 4 who takes his INT from 11 to 12 will get +1 skill points to spend immediatly.

 

[glass]

A question, for all of you arguing for the druid being able to take Multiattack. Would you allow a fighter with a 9 Int to have Fox's Cunning cast on him in order to pick up Combat Expertise?

Yes, of course.


glass.

 

[glass]

At least, that's how I've always played it, and I see nothing in the rules to suggest that this interpretation is wrong per the RAW. If you game in a more Order of the Stick kind of world, then sure.

But, we aren't debating what ruling is best for versimiltude, we're debating which is RAW, so what type of 'world' you want to play in is irrelevant. In certain types of games, introducing a houserule for versimilitude might be a fine idea, but that has no bearing on what the RAW say.


glass.