Multiattack

[IcyCool]

Looking back over the thread of posts, perhaps I've misrepresented myself. Let me try and clear things up. It is my belief, and ruling, that you must have the prereq for a feat to take it, period. I do not believe that a druid who can wildshape fulfills the prereq for Multiattack of "three natural weapons."

So he has the pre-req, but he doesn't? That seems ... odd. But if it works for your group, by all means keep it. It's hard enough to get some groups to agree on anything.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

So he has the pre-req, but he doesn't? That seems ... odd. But if it works for your group, by all means keep it. It's hard enough to get some groups to agree on anything.

Huh? The druid doesn't have the prereq, period. He doesn't have three natural attacks. He can use an ability to assume a shape that does, but that doesn't mean he does. A wizard can Shapechange into a Planetar, that doesn't mean he can start taking Celestial-only feats. Same with the druid.

Nowhere am I stating that he has the prereq. I'm stating that I House Rule a way for him to still get the feat, despite not having the prereq.

 

[IcyCool]

Huh? The druid doesn't have the prereq, period. He doesn't have three natural attacks. He can use an ability to assume a shape that does, but that doesn't mean he does. A wizard can Shapechange into a Planetar, that doesn't mean he can start taking Celestial-only feats. Same with the druid.

So if he is wildshaped and has three natural attacks, he doesn't really have 3 natural attacks?

And referring to your Shapechange example, it would depend on the critter and the wording of the feat.

Nowhere am I stating that he has the prereq. I'm stating that I House Rule a way for him to still get the feat, despite not having the prereq.

Which is probably where my confusion stems. I'm seeing one houserule (wildshaped druid with 3 natural attacks doesn't really have 3 natural attacks), and another houserule to break it for special cases.

 

[Dimwhit]

Huh? The druid doesn't have the prereq, period. He doesn't have three natural attacks. He can use an ability to assume a shape that does, but that doesn't mean he does. A wizard can Shapechange into a Planetar, that doesn't mean he can start taking Celestial-only feats. Same with the druid.

This would be where I disagree. Comparing Wild Shape to Shapechange is misleading, since Shapechange is a spell. Wild Shape is a Supernatual Ability, much like a Dragon's breathweapon, as an example. It is as much a part of what he is as his base attack bonus or saves. It can't be taken away, it can't be dispelled. It's not an item that can be removed, and it's not a spell that can be disrupted. It's a part of the Druids natural abilities. Therefore, the forms he can turn into (and their abilities) are a natural extension of himself.

That's how I see it, anyway. Seems to fit within my reading of the RAW.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This would be where I disagree. Comparing Wild Shape to Shapechange is misleading, since Shapechange is a spell. Wild Shape is a Supernatual Ability, much like a Dragon's breathweapon, as an example. It is as much a part of what he is as his base attack bonus or saves. It can't be taken away, it can't be dispelled. It's not an item that can be removed, and it's not a spell that can be disrupted. It's a part of the Druids natural abilities. Therefore, the forms he can turn into (and their abilities) are a natural extension of himself.

That's how I see it, anyway. Seems to fit within my reading of the RAW.

Yes, this is where we disagree. I don't believe that a druid can be considered as having the traits of every possible thing he can wildshape into. He is not considered to have wings, or a climb speed, etc. etc. He is considered to have Wildshape (Su), which allows him access to [Wild] feats. He's not considered to have the traits of every animal and elemental in the MM. Give him that feat in the Draconomicon that allows wildshaping into dragons, and he's suddenly considered a dragon and can take all the draconic feats as well? No, I don't think that was intended at all, nor do I believe the RAW support it in any way.

Clearly YMMV and does, and that's fine too. Good gaming.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Which is probably where my confusion stems. I'm seeing one houserule (wildshaped druid with 3 natural attacks doesn't really have 3 natural attacks), and another houserule to break it for special cases.

Fair enough. I'm seeing the RAW (druid that doesn't have three natural attacks wildshaped into a creature that does,) and one house rule to break it in special cases.

 

[glass]

But if you have 'the ability to boost your int by +4,' then you can have an int of +4, so long as you use that ability.

...and get +2 skill points at level up? Not in my game.

Nor in mine, because Fox's Cunning and Headband of Int specifically exclude extra skill points.

You do realise that when we are talking about a case with no specific exception, pointing to another case where there is a specific exception helps my case more than yours?


glass.

 

[glass]

Yes, this is where we disagree. I don't believe that a druid can be considered as having the traits* of every possible thing he can wildshape into.

Again with that straw man. He is not considered to have the traits* of everything he can possibly wildshape into, nor does be need to be. He is considered to have the the traits* of the specific creature he is wildshaped into, while he is wildshaped into it. That's all he needs.

* Using the word 'traits' here, as I assume Lord Pendragon is also, in the English sense of the word, not the specifc D&D sense of the word.


glass.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You do realise that when we are talking about a case with no specific exception, pointing to another case where there is a specific exception helps my case more than yours?

I don't see how it helps your case at all. *sigh* I just need to quit using analogies around here. People try to pull apart the analogy, instead of addressing the point it was meant to express.

I've already stated my interpretation as plainly as possible, but here it is one last time:

* A druid doesn't have three or more natural attacks (unless we're talking about an awakened dire tiger druid, anyway).

* The Multiattack Feat lists a prerequisite of three or more natural attacks.

Therefore, a druid cannot take the Multiattack feat.

This is the RAW as I see it, plain and simple and setting aside any imperfect analogies or House Rules I might have instigated to provide the players with more options. That's all there is to it to me.

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

The indicated "other quality" is "three natural attacks." The druid doesn't have them. So he can't select or use that feat.

Now, perhaps there's a rule tucked away somewhere that states that if you can temporarily gain access to a prerequisite, by whatever means, that allows one to take a feat as well. I'd be more than pleased if you could point it out to me, since I can't seem to find it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Again with that straw man. He is not considered to have the traits* of everything he can possibly wildshape into, nor does be need to be. He is considered to have the the traits* of the specific creature he is wildshaped into, while he is wildshaped into it. That's all he needs.

Which would mean he could take any feat that required any animal trait, since he has access to any of them, when he's wildshaped into a specific creature that has it. The point was that by your ruling, for the purposes of selecting feats he does have any and all animal traits. If all he needs is access to them to select feats that require them, and he has access to all of them through wildshape, then he can select any feat based on animal traits.

Where is the strawman? I'm pointing out that if you rule that wildshape allows a druid to have an assumed form's traits for the purposes of feat selection, then he conceivably has the traits of any form he can assume, should he need them to select a particular feat.

If a feat requires one to have wings, the druid can take it, since he can become a bird.

If a feat requires one to have 2 claw attacks, the druid can take it, since he can become a lion.

If a feat requires one to be able to pounce, again, lion.

Etc. etc. I don't consider wildshape to fulfill any and all prerequisites that require some kind of gross physical characteristic that some animals possess. The only prerequisite that wildshape fulfills is "Ability to wildshape," such as required by the [Wild] feats.