Multiattack

[glass]

Which would mean he could take any feat that required any animal trait, since he has access to any of them, when he's wildshaped into a specific creature that has it. The point was that by your ruling, for the purposes of selecting feats he does have any and all animal traits. If all he needs is access to them to select feats that require them, and he has access to all of them through wildshape, then he can select any feat based on animal traits.

Where is the strawman? I'm pointing out that if you rule that wildshape allows a druid to have an assumed form's traits for the purposes of feat selection, then he conceivably has the traits of any form he can assume, should he need them to select a particular feat.

If a feat requires one to have wings, the druid can take it, since he can become a bird.

No, if a feat requires one to have wings, he can take if he becomes a bird.

If a feat requires one to have 2 claw attacks, the druid can take it, since he can become a lion.

No, if a feat requires one to have 2 claw attacks, he can take if he becomes a lion.

If a feat requires one to be able to pounce, again, lion.

If a feat requires one to have pounce, he can take if he becomes a lion.

He couldn't take a feat (or PrC) that required wings and a feat (or PrC) that required pounce at the same level, unless he can find some way of wildshaping into something that has both (a griffon, perhaps).

Etc. etc. I don't consider wildshape to fulfill any and all prerequisites that require some kind of gross physical characteristic that some animals possess. The only prerequisite that wildshape fulfills is "Ability to wildshape," such as required by the [Wild] feats.

Wildshape doesn't fulfill the prerequisites. Having the claws/wings/whatever fulfills the prerequisites. How you got them is irrlevant.


glass.

 

[green slime]

I agree with glass. The point of it all being, he can't use these feats unless he is in an appropriate form, anyway. So where is the hastle? I'd definitely allow a druid to take Multiattack, he just wouldn't benefit from it unless he was in a form that had three natural attacks.

 

[IcyCool]

The point of it all being, he can't use these feats unless he is in an appropriate form, anyway. So where is the hastle? I'd definitely allow a druid to take Multiattack, he just wouldn't benefit from it unless he was in a form that had three natural attacks.

Exactly.

Two more questions for Lord Pendragon:

1. Does a Bear with the Claw/Claw/Bite routine have three natural attacks?

2. Does a druid in Bear shape with the Claw/Claw/Bite routine have three natural attacks? (Note, he doesn't have them when in human form.)

If your answer to #1 is yes and no to #2, where in the RAW do you see that? A druid in Bear form with three natural attacks quite happily meets the pre-requisites for Multiattack by RAW, unless I'm missing some rule that says otherwise.

 

[Dimwhit]

Isn't there a reference in one or more of the books about Druids taking feats like Flyby Attack and Wingover? I may be imagining it (I tend to do that), but that would be the same situation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Isn't there a reference in one or more of the books about Druids taking feats like Flyby Attack and Wingover? I may be imagining it (I tend to do that), but that would be the same situation.

They appeared in the Feats chapter of Masters of the Wild, with the implication being that they were there as feats-for-druids.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree with glass. The point of it all being, he can't use these feats unless he is in an appropriate form, anyway. So where is the hastle? I'd definitely allow a druid to take Multiattack, he just wouldn't benefit from it unless he was in a form that had three natural attacks.

I would agree with this, if a PC could choose a feat he doesn't qualify for and then use it when he does, in any other circumstance. But it's my understanding that this isn't possible. The 1st-level fighter can't choose Improved Critical yet, because he doesn't fulfill the prereqs. In theory, he also just wouldn't benefit from it unless he had a BAB 9+. But the rules disallow it. He has to have the prereqs when he chooses the feat. I don't see why the druid should be different.

No, if a feat requires one to have wings, he can take if he becomes a bird.

I would agree with this, if leveling up were a concrete event in the game world that occurred at the PC's convenience. When an 8th-level druid gains 36,000xp, does he suddenly think to himself, "hey, I can level up now. I'd better change into a lion so I can take Multiattack!"

Perhaps in your game he does. As far as I understand it, leveling is more abstract than that. It's meant to represent a gradual improvement in the PC's abilities over the course of the entire level, not a sudden power-up such as you might find in a video game. Because of that, the druid can't prepare for leveling by changing into the appropriate form he'll need to fulfill the prereqs of the feat he's interested in.

IcyCool, I've already explained the distinction between the two examples you gave upthread.

A question, for all of you arguing for the druid being able to take Multiattack. Would you allow a fighter with a 9 Int to have Fox's Cunning cast on him in order to pick up Combat Expertise?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would agree with this, if leveling up were a concrete event in the game world that occurred at the PC's convenience. When an 8th-level druid gains 36,000xp, does he suddenly think to himself, "hey, I can level up now. I'd better change into a lion so I can take Multiattack!"

I'm away from my books, and mechanics of levelling aren't in the SRD.

But isn't there a rule that when someone gains enough XP to go up a level, they're not required to, because they may instead choose to use some XP for crafting an item?

Let's say our 8th level druid gains 1050xp, putting him from 35000 to 36050. "But I want to craft that Amulet of Natural Armor," he says, "so I won't level just yet, or I won't be able to."

Then, when the wizard gets around to identifying the loot, it's discovered that there was an Amulet of Natural Armor in the chest they liberated in the last battle.

"I guess I don't need to save that XP after all," the druid decides. "I suppose I will level."

Surely that moment of decision is the point that the level is gained? The option to remain at a lower level despite XP sufficient to advance (assuming I'm recalling that correctly) means that it does, in fact, occur at the PC's convenience?

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Surely that moment of decision is the point that the level is gained? The option to remain at a lower level despite XP sufficient to advance (assuming I'm recalling that correctly) means that it does, in fact, occur at the PC's convenience?

An interesting point, though that's now how I see it. The decisions you mention are, IMO, player decisions. The player decides to forgo immediately leveling up and instead craft the amulet, because the player understands how much xp the PC has, and exactly how much xp is required to level. For the PC, he simply crafts the amulet, and continues to adventure and get better. i.e. it's all a continuous, gradual improvement for him, not a matter of sudden, discrete power-ups that can be activated when convenient.

At least, that's how I've always played it, and I see nothing in the rules to suggest that this interpretation is wrong per the RAW. If you game in a more Order of the Stick kind of world, then sure.

 

[IcyCool]

The 1st-level fighter can't choose Improved Critical yet, because he doesn't fulfill the prereqs. In theory, he also just wouldn't benefit from it unless he had a BAB 9+. But the rules disallow it. He has to have the prereqs when he chooses the feat. I don't see why the druid should be different.

No one is suggesting that a feat can be taken before someone can meet the pre-requisites. However, if that same fighter had a dex of 12 and had gloves of dexterity on, he'd be able to take dodge (because he fulfills the pre-reqs), and would be unable to access it unless he had his gloves on (or otherwise had a dex of 13).

IcyCool, I've already explained the distinction between the two examples you gave upthread.

Yes, you explained that you didn't think that the druid met the pre-requisites. But then you went and implied that this was spelled out somewhere in the RAW, and not your own interpretation. As far as I can see, it's a gray area in the RAW, and open to interpretation. Where did you find the rule that says that the "druid in bear form" example isn't RAW?

A question, for all of you arguing for the druid being able to take Multiattack. Would you allow a fighter with a 9 Int to have Fox's Cunning cast on him in order to pick up Combat Expertise?

Yes. And he would only be able to use it when his Int is 13 or higher. Of course, I also ascribe to the school of thought that if you for some reason no longer qualify for a feat that you have, you get no benefit from it. Or anything else that uses it as a pre-req. And so on down the chain.

 

[Hypersmurf]

An interesting point, though that's now how I see it. The decisions you mention are, IMO, player decisions. The player decides to forgo immediately leveling up and instead craft the amulet, because the player understands how much xp the PC has, and exactly how much xp is required to level. For the PC, he simply crafts the amulet, and continues to adventure and get better. i.e. it's all a continuous, gradual improvement for him, not a matter of sudden, discrete power-ups that can be activated when convenient.

So can the player not elect for the level-up process to occur at a time that the PC has three or more natural weapons?

-Hyp.