Multiclass Saves Fix!

[Arkhandus]

A Few points Arkhandus.

1: being how the numbers are generated to begin with, not using my variant rule we's still at least be using the rule from UA for the fractional bonuses. The BAB falling from reasonable multiclassing is a good enough reason for me, and I've I'm doing it for BAB I may as well for saves too.

So the fighter is giving 2.5 to Fortitude, and the Monk is giving 2.5 to all saves, and the Monk is giving a fraction of 3/4 to BAB instead of a whole 1. That's not going to get you to BAB 2, but it gets you alot closer.

As for the multiclass monk, theyre not so great if you multiclass against type. But if you multiclass woth things that are monkish its totally different. IE Monk Ninja. Then if you're willing to blow a feat, your ninja levels count as monnk levels for the monk abilities and vice versa.

And that still doesnt solve the +2 stacking I was referring to.

Not ANY combination to get the +2 bonuses is a great idea, but with a little forethought, you can make yourself be as good as a single class character, but with significantly better saves.

I don't mind the idea of using fractional saves and fractional BAB, necessarily, but I prefer to leave those things as done in the core rules instead. Sacrificing some BAB or other stuff is just the price you pay for dipping into other classes for other benefits, and there's nothing wrong with making a trade-off. Gaining a good save bonus isn't that awesome in exchange, although it's nice to have sometimes.

If you use the standard multiclassing rules, then you shouldn't have much problem with players trying to powergame their way to massive save bonuses, because they'd have to take a 20% XP hit (and thus wind up lower-level than their comrades and enemies) in order to munchkin out their saving throws via multiclassing. Standard multiclassing penalties mean they're more likely to have reasonable, albeit fairly good, saving throws. And roleplaying matters should be keeping them from just dipping into numerous prestige classes willy-nilly. And since not everyone in the party is going to have great saves, it won't do them much good if the other PCs get targeted by enemy mages etc. and leave only the guy with high saves but poor to mediocre offense for last.

A monk/ninja has overlapping class features and delays access to their best class features from both sources. It's not that bad for a feat to let them stack those levels for a few purposes, since they'd otherwise be a rather poor combo given their overlap, but I don't have the right books so I don't know what that feat does exactly. Regardless, such an example doesn't really present much of a save-bonus problem; their great Reflex will only be marginally improved by multiclassing into ninja, and their great Will likewise, whereas their Fortitude will be reduced to mediocre at best, not a good thing for melee-types (though at least their monkish defenses will render them gradually immune to a few of the Fortitude-targeting special attacks; more slowly than a pure monk, though).

Spellcasters have enough dis-incentive to avoid multiclassing as it is. And personally, I'm more worried about crap like Frenzied Berserkers, Radiant Servants of Pelor, Divine Metamagic feats, and so on, not someone getting a few good save bonuses through sacrificing access to higher-tier special abilities. There's at least some opportunity cost involved in the save-bonuses.

 

[Hawken]

Sacrificing some BAB or other stuff is just the price you pay for dipping into other classes for other benefits

"Just the price you pay" seems to be an ongoing mantra for you, Arkhandus. Your attitude about LA is pretty much the same, while that is deficient like the saves. Multiclassing already has its drawbacks without having to hose Saves. The poor LA rules don't matter as long as you don't play a race with an LA. The problem with saves doesn't matter as long as you don't multiclass. But if you want to do either of those things, you have to 'pay' because the writers didn't do even a passable job at defining those situations. That's bunk!

In the case of saves, since that's what this thread is about, the quickest and easiest fix is to make the +2 bonus to good saves a one time thing for the character's 1st level class and adopt a fractional (or decimal) progression (round down) for saves. The only thing to decide is what fraction/decimal value to give the saves. Good saves, 1/2 or 0.5 sure. But for Poor saves; 3/9, or 0.33334; whatever 1 point per 3 levels comes out to. (On a side note, Kerrick makes a good argument for 4/10 or .4 for Poor saves). Problem solved. Case closed.

The system for multiclassing when it comes to BAB and Saves--they are basically the same, values that increase at a fixed rate over a number of levels was not completed. If it was, this topic would never have come up. For all the suckers that think "that's the price to pay", they deserve to get stuck with the shorter end of the straw. Not anyone who thinks the situation through. The price that is paid when multiclassing is quite simple; multiclassing.

A fighter that multiclasses pays:
--reduced fighting skill (slower BAB progression)
--reduced stamina (lower HD = fewer hp)
--reduced combat options (fewer bonus feats)
--likely reduced sturdiness (probable slower Fort save progression)
--diminished use of acquired abilities (a rogue or wizard cannot fight like a fighter)
--likely inability to use same type of armor, shield and weapons.

In return, he may get:
--slightly more skills (maybe)
--slight increase in Ref or Will save (at the likely expense of a reduced Fort save)
--previously unavailable class abilities

The trade-off is the same for just about any class going into any other class. New abilities are gained, but doing so reduces the effectiveness of ALL abilities. A Ftr 5/Wiz 3 cannot fight on the same level as a Ftr 8 even though both are 8th level characters. Sure, he could put on the armor, take out the weapons and go mix it up, but doing so eliminates 3 levels worth of powers and abilities. That same person is also nowhere near as useful as a Wiz 8. Sure, he gets a few spells, but these are going to have minimal, if any, effect on 8th level monsters.

And at higher levels its worse! That wiz 18 that took 2 levels of fighter for a couple of feats and some extra HD/BAB is going to have some problems against a Wiz 20. And that Fighter 18 that dipped into Rog 2 for skills and evasion is going to have problems with a Ftr 20 that has more BAB, HP, Fort and an extra feat.

There are already plenty of drawbacks to multiclassing. Making save (and BAB) progressions worse doesn't need to be and shouldn't be part of it.

 

[Sylrae]

Hey Hawken, we used to rub eachother the wrong way, but lately, I'm agreeing with almost all of your points.

"The price you pay" being the likelyhood of a character so bad you have no reason to multiclass, isnt an answer, it's a copout.

The 20%+ xp penalty isnt a good balance for multiclassing, it's a "well if they use a couple very specific examples or plan real hard they'll be overpowered" so lets nerf all of them so the idea of multiclassing isnt going to cross anyone's mind unless they dont care how terrible it makes them.

Somneone who isnt just trying to munchkin things shouldnt be gimped as much as they are. There are perfectly legitimate combinations that are just as reasonable as a single class, and multiclassing makes me appreciate not having my players ask me to help them design a class from scratch as often. They can multiclass to have almost the same effect if I dont gimp them. but at the same time, I dont want to encourage munchkining, so the non-munchkin applications of multiclass shouldnt be penalized, but munchkining should be made harder.

That being said, Hawken's Idea of +2 to any two saves at level one (or split one of the saves into a +1/+1) doesnt sound so bad to me, as long as you cant stack more than 2 on the same save. Hell, I think I'd be satisfied with half that, just the 2 +1s. I'm using a faster good save progression for each class, then let them pick two saves at level one for a +1 bonus, or 1 save with a +2. In the end they'kll have slightly better saves. The monsters will have crappier saves too at the really low levels, so itll even out.

Also, I see little distinction when it comes to multiclassing between PrCs and regular Classes, the problems im referring to are still there, with the esception of the XP penalties. im not seeing any logic behind that one, but its there.

 

[Hawken]

You're right, Syl! Good to see you're coming around to my way of things!

The +2 to 2 saves idea was for 2 different saves.

 

[Sadrik]

Or you could do fractional saves with the following: at level 1 you add +1 to one save +2 to another or +1 to all. You could assign these independent of class or depending on the class these should be pretty easy to figure out what goes where.

 

[Arkhandus]

Pffft. I have readily acknowledged before that LA and multiclassing need some tweaking, but you definitely have to trade something for something else; playing a powerful race would be totally broken if the only drawback you suffered was a slight or moderate lag in catching up to the exact same level as the far-weaker-race PCs. LA prevents that kind of catching-up-and-totally-outclassing versus the standard races. But uber-saves from multiclassing aren't terribly easy to get and you do give up BAB and class features for them. And they're not all that uber.

Just because WotC made it a policy to give LA+X races somewhat too little in exchange for their Level Adjustment doesn't make LA itself broken. Strong races are worth their Level Adjustment, and WotC just didn't make many like that; instead they made most LA races too weak for their LA for a silly reason. Custom or houseruled races can easily be worth their Level Adjustments. And some printed races are worth their LA (half-ogres in 3.0, via Savage Species, were well worth their +1 LA and probably too good for it, which is why WotC gimped them in 3.5 rather than just slightly toning down a single stat to balance them at +1 LA). My campaigns nearly always use some houserules that level the playing field better between the races (as seen on my Rhunaria webpage, though sadly Geocities is closing down soon so that'll disappear, and on my Aurelia thread here).

BTW, my ex-monk/druid/barbarian/ranger/fighter just died. His "uber-saves" failed him and sure as heck didn't save him from getting butchered in 2 rounds by a single frost giant with a scant few levels of barbarian (and one friendly fireball from a party member, but we didn't expect my PC to actually fail to Evade the fireball). That giant had higher Fortitude saves than my PC, too, despite my multiclassing between several high-Fortitude classes.

Sure, it'd be nice if he had a higher BAB and better unarmed damage, but he survived quite a lot over the years up till Monday, despite his poor offensive ability (Call Lightning and Flame Strike helped somewhat). Multiclassing needs some fixing. But saving throws alone are a small matter. If you're going to change multiclass saves, then multiclass BAB probably needs changing too. But multiclass save bonuses are far from being overpowering.

 

[Hawken]

Just because WotC made it a policy to give LA+X races somewhat too little in exchange for their Level Adjustment doesn't make LA itself broken.

Do you even think about what you write or do you just have the text version of Asperger's? Giving too little in exchange for a penalty that outgrows benefits that decrease as power scales IS broken--that fits the very definition of something that is broken!

Strong races are worth their Level Adjustment

This is just your opinion and considering that this thread and the other one about LAs has been up for a while and no one else has really supported you, I'm gonna say you're one of the only people that shares this broken line of thought.

And some printed races are worth their LA (half-ogres in 3.0, via Savage Species, were well worth their +1 LA and probably too good for it, which is why WotC gimped them in 3.5 rather than just slightly toning down a single stat to balance them at +1 LA).

Stop harping about the half-ogre! I've shot your ideas about them down more than once already. There is no race that is "worth" any LA adjustment.

I'm not even going to comment on that stuff about your character. Yeah, its been established that multiclassing is broken, and since saves are a component of that--and the subject of this thread--its more than a small matter. If you guys had fought a lich instead of a giant, you'd have been making probably multiple saves a round and wouldn't have stated that saves were a 'small matter'.

In fact, looking back, you haven't really done anything to contribute to the OP, except by this last post where you inform us of your long time character meeting his demise. Obviously, it was a low roll that did it for that fireball/reflex save, but since you didn't brag about it being a natural 1, I guess we can believe it was because your reflex was so low because your characters levels were spread as far and wide as a hooker's legs! So, in an indirect way, I guess you actually did prove the OP's point about fixing the saving throw system for multiclass characters.

 

[Arkhandus]

Now that's just rude.

I've tried to provide an argument that multiclass saves aren't really broken, and I've provided examples, and I mentioned that if they are going to alter multiclass saves anyway, they should at least alter multiclass BAB and such as well to keep things even rather than just screwing multiclass PCs by taking away one slight advantage they get in exchange for their lesser focus/potency. Also, for reference, you can look for more stuff in Unearthed Arcana for possible fixes to the multiclass caster problem; I *think* I remember the Magic Rating option or one of the others giving mention for non-caster classes counting partially towards Magic Rating, which functions as caster level and such.

My multiclass monk had a Reflex of around +14 or so, but I don't feel like starting up OpenRPG just to double-check his sheet for the exact value. His Fortitude and Will were around +16 or so. He rolled low, sure, but not terribly; the spellcasters' save DCs are just really high at upper levels of the game when they focus on making themselves into potent casters. With save DCs in the mid-20s or so at 13th-level or thereabouts, a +14 is only around a 50/50 chance of success, give or take 5 or 10% depending on the individual caster you face. Had my PC died to a lich, he would've been no more likely to pass his saves than against the party's own mages, he might very well have had an even harder time because of a lich's bonuses and likely high level! Sure, my monk had a slightly better chance of surviving a lich's spell than the other PCs, but not a drastically better chance. Also, you just ignore the fact that a pure monk would have similar, if not better, overall saves anyway than a multiclass character. A pure monk would fair as well or better against a lich than some multiclass mess like my PC was.

Multiclass save bonuses as they stand are not that broken, if they're even broken at all (which I don't think they are, for my part), and I'd rather see YOU provide some evidence to the contrary rather than just harping on me for no good reason when I'm actually trying to provide examples and EXPLAIN my reasoning/math like a civilized individual.


And you're significantly downplaying the importance of the benefits powerful races get in exchange for their Level Adjustments, just poo-pooing them as insignificant eventually regardless of the fact that they don't drop in numerical bonus and the fact that they are major at low to middle levels, not something to be offset by simply allowing the overpoweredness and just slightly delaying the PC at each level so he or she doesn't regain an equal level with the rest of the party until after a few battles into that level. Half-Celestials etc. are flat-out better than Gray Elves and such, let alone plain old High Elves, while Half-Ogres and Minotaurs and such are flat-out better than half-orcs and humans and dwarves.

They need some kind of balancing factor, and Level Adjustment is that balancing factor, even if you have to implement a minor houserule for some nonstandard races to make them fit their Level Adjustment better rather than being somewhat underpowered compared to what LA WotC gave them.

Think dark elves suck for their LA? Lower their LA to +1 or give them one effective level of wizard or cleric spellcasting, which stacks with any actual levels in the classes, or give them some added spell-like abilities based on their character level like Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends get; maybe you give dark elves Blink at 3rd-level, Phantasmal Killer at 7th-level, Cloudkill at 11th-level, and Shades at 15th-level? Maybe you lower Half-Ogres' LA to +1 like it was in 3.0 and simply give them the reach of a Medium creature? Or whatever. And I'm only using those two races as examples because they're among the more-common +LA races I've seen in play. Maybe half-dragons deserve their LA lowered by 1 point, and/or deserve to have more frequent use of their breath weapon? Whatever.

But simply replacing LA with some broken "I don't care if your PC is uber for half the campaign (or the entire campaign if it's likely to be a typical, short low-level or mid-level campaign), go ahead and I'll just hold you back from gaining each *new* level until after the other guys have gotten to enjoy that new level for one or two battles before you totally eclipse them again" option is, to put it nicely, not a good idea. If you're going to replace it, you darn well should replace it with something that maintains the worthwhileness of standard races compared to the stronger races, not just making a token effort at giving the illusion of fairness (or something that just provides temporary fairness between periods of blatant overpoweredness for the nonstandard races) to players of the standard races.

 

[Quartz]

How about stealing from 4e?

All characters have a base F/R/W save equal to half their level, rounded down.

Classes give a class bonus of +2 to one or more saves. E.g. a Fighter gets +2 to Fort, a Rogue gets +2 to Ref, so a character with levels in both Fighter and Rogue gets +2 to Fort and +2 to Ref; a character with levels in Wizard and Knight would only get +2 to Will, because like bonuses don't stack.

Humans get +1 to all saves.

Note that this gives the single-classed character the same good save values at Level 1 (+2) and Level 20 (+12), and neatly segues into Epic.

Edit: BTW Fighters who multi-class into non-full BAB classes really get borked at Epic levels unless you allow Epic Prowess to count towards EAB.

 

[Kerrick]

Wow, Hawk, that was harsh even for you.

Ark: There have been numerous and varied observances by many players that LA is a broken system. As Hawk pointed out, the abilities gained rarely scale and usually become useless after a few levels, leaving the PC with racial levels perpetually lagging behind the rest of the party, forever unable to catch up or be useful, and forever unable to handle an encounter at his supposed ECL. There are, of course, obvious exceptions, but then there are exceptions to any rule.

I don't believe that anyone here has mentioned using fractional saves without doing the same for BAB - IMO, they should BOTH be fixed. I believe I mentioned that already in my post (ENWorld's loading too slowly for me to try to look), along with my solution: fractional BAB/saves, and let BAB increase to +20 for all classes, regardless of progression, then switch to the EAB. Same thing with saves - go to +12, then EAS. On paper, it holds up well, and it lets PCs multiclass without gimping them.