D&D 5E Multiclassing...AGAIN?

[The Shadow]

That is (one reason) why there are things other than class levels to buy with XP, like Feats. If you spend all of your levels on new classes, you won't have access to the nifty things you can do within any class because you haven't bought feats.

At this point, we essentially have a point-buy system, so why have classes at all? Just break everything down into XP costs (and probably chop a few zeroes off the end for good measure) and call it good.

EDIT:

Get outta my head, slobster!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you really like the idea of spending xp directly on benefits instead of levelling up, look at Mutants & Masterminds, a d20 system that does just that.

Actually, I'm a HEROphile...

Fighters should be tougher than Wizards. So it has been, so shall D&D continue to be.

Almost completely correct. 4Ed- NOT my favorite edition (that would be 3.5Ed)- muddles this up a bit. I'm currently in a 4Ed campaign in which my Dwarven Starlock is the second toughest PC in the partly. (The only PC who is tougher is the Dwarven Fighter, though.)

Anyway, expanding on this:

I'm thinking that in a system like this, HD type would be determined by your Con, not your class, and the number of HD you have would be determined exclusively by your XP level.

Since D& D has always had bonus HP, perhaps it is THEY that come from your classes, fully reversing the traditional structure of the game on this area.

So, for instance, a PC with 6000XP would have 3HD; his Con 15 makes them d8s, and his classes give him a few (one time) bonus HP.

More potential fun: If magic permanently increases his Con, his HD size goes up. He re-rolls and takes the best result. If magic permanently decreases his Con, his HD size goes down. He re-rolls and takes the worse result.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

At this point, we essentially have a point-buy system, so why have classes at all?

If done properly, classes still represent discrete packages of benefits & prereqs that you can't simply buy in smaller packets. While Feats cost XP to acquire, and anyone can buy them, Fighters get more of them at first level than others.

And, for example, it is possible that Ftr2 gets you an XP price break on your next 2 "Fighter" feats. Other PCs may be buying the same feats, but the guy who just bought Ftr2 gets them for fewer XP.

Also, some abilities- casting spells, using psionics, channeling divine power- would still not be purchasable at all without entry into a class.

 

[frankthedm]

A random thought just popped into my head: what if levels cost XP like groceries cost $$$?

The primary benefit of character levels is forcing PCs to have adequate servings of Defense, Offence and Utility. Flexibility lets PCs eat around their vejitables and build lopsided characters unless the player is system savvy enough to recognize the imbalance potential and avoid glass cannons, mushpots spread too thin and Brick Walls with no offence.

 

[Lanefan]

Still doesn't solve the believability problem of picking up an entire new class on a relative whim; along with the problems already mentioned above about trying to break out of additivity and still make it work.

Lanefan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's no more unbelievable than the original 3Ed system, which is, IMHO, the most believable of the bunch.

 

[Lanefan]

It's no more unbelievable than the original 3Ed system, which is, IMHO, the most believable of the bunch.

To me it's the least believable, in that you can pick up a class - Rangering, Thieving, Magic Use, Clericism, Bard, any of which in theory should take years of study and practice to even get to 0th-level in never mind 1st - on a whim!

At least with 1e there was some sort of organic progression - the mechanical development vaguely followed some sort of in-character forethought. I've suggested elsewhere (and here too? I forget) how to tweak this to solve the issues the 1e system did have...

Lanefan

 

[slobo777]

To me it's the least believable, in that you can pick up a class - Rangering, Thieving, Magic Use, Clericism, Bard, any of which in theory should take years of study and practice to even get to 0th-level in never mind 1st - on a whim!

At least with 1e there was some sort of organic progression - the mechanical development vaguely followed some sort of in-character forethought. I've suggested elsewhere (and here too? I forget) how to tweak this to solve the issues the 1e system did have...

Lanefan

TBH I have this problem with levelling up irrespective of whether PCs stick to a class or not. The assumption of course is that "off screen" the PCs are practicing/training and refining their abilities. Edit: Also, of course, whacking a goblin on the head can improve your ability to identify plants or craft intricate wooden items!

Multi-classing IME doesn't work out as "on a whim", as you typically need a decent prime stat in the second class. Also, I found that players and DMs that cared about this would add something towards it feeling OK in the story by focussing on some of that normally off screen time (typically player will RP "being taught" from another PC or NPC for a level) - not that the rules require it, but it goes a long way to making it flow nicely.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

At least with 1e there was some sort of organic progression - the mechanical development vaguely followed some sort of in-character forethought. I've suggested elsewhere (and here too? I forget) how to tweak this to solve the issues the 1e system did have...

1) AD&D multiclassing as is only supports the concept of the guy who always has been and always will be This/That/This other thing. It does not at all support someone who dabbles, or who finds another path later in life...IOW, someone like me, who just finished his third postgraduate program. Or Brian May (guitarist for Queen, recently earned his PhD in astrophysics). And others.

2) you suggested your workaround in another one of the recent Multiclassing threads- mine I think.

3) I've never seen it as a "whim"- the training for 3Ed multiclassing merely occurs off-screen. Of course, that's no change. As I recall, even back in 1Ed, PCs were supposed to "train" before leveling. Most people hand waved that away and simply folded that into typical adventuring life. Even if the PC in question never used abilities from all of his classes...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, here is your workaround...

That's because your thinking is stuck in 3e mode, where everything is additive and a "10th level character" might not have any actual levels higher than 3, as in Ft-3/Wz-1/Rg-2/Cl-2/Bd-2

It shouldn't be that way.

First off, 5-class monstrosities like my example simply should not exist, period.

Second, if the levels advanced independently of each other and a 9-1 was thus only trivially different from a single-class 9, your issue would go away.
This is trivially easy to work around. All you need is some guidelines for how one might pick up a class during one's career - I'd suggest it would involve at minimum a half-year's training (i.e. adventuring downtime) to become a raw 1st with 0 XP in the new class. Then, you carry on as if a 1e multi from there.

Example: I start off as a straight Fighter for the first 5 levels (say, 20,000 XP worth), then decide I want to pick up a bit of MU on the side so I can do my own Identify spells on my armour and weapons. I take 6-12 months off from adventuring and spend this time instead in a crash course in spellcasting*. When I come back I'm a F-5/MU-1 and my XP are split at 20000-0. I decide from here on I'm going to divide my earned XP 50-50 between my two classes.

Next adventure earns me a total of 6000 XP; so I'm now at 23000 on the Fighter side and 3000 on the MU side, which bumps me to MU-2: I'm now F-5/MU-2. And I carry on from there.

Point is, using 1e as a jumping-off point doesn't necessarily mean you have to multi right from the start.

* - some sort of lengthy training time is essential - this business of just jumping into an entirely new class on a whim when you bump (as in 3e) is so lame it can't stand up.

Lanefan

I'd have posted that in my last post, but my "Edit" Button has disappeared.