Multiclassing Moritorium

[Doug McCrae]

1) To fit a character concept.
2) Three or fewer PCs.
3) Fun. I, for example, just happen to like gishes multiclassed fighty/casty guys.
4) Options, not restrictions.

 

[am181d]

Yes, they difinitively state in the podcast that multiclassing is in in addition to class training feats. They specifically state that you can take a level of another class rather than a level in the same class. What they're doing is specifying the bonuses you get according to how many levels of multiclassing you do, in their words 'how deep' you delve into the second class.

I listened to the podcast, and I didn't hear anything to indicate that there were separate "multiclass" and "class training" options. As far as I can tell, they're one and the same.

It's possible I missed a bit. If anyone can pull a quote, that'd be great...

 

[Incenjucar]

I.. ih... you... bwah?

You guys are thinking way too old edition, based on what we've seen.

At least as presented, classes are NOT what they used to be.

Classes are a collection of "Starter Abilities," and then a collection of Powers that you can choose.

Multiclassing is just gaining a different class's starter abilities and powers instead of your original class's.

The main problem I see is that so many classes are based around specific implements: Light Blades, Military Weapons, Wands, etc.

Multiclassing sounds like it'll result in a lot of dual-wielding of daggers and wands or daggers and longsword or wands and long swords.

 

[Mercule]

Personally, my rogue took a level of cleric, for the saves, domain power (Reroll please!), and flavor.

Well, my rogue played the ethical slot usually reserved for the paladin (seriously, I was actually referred to as "the paladin" several times), so I wasn't exactly going to get Trickery. I later did do a rebuild of the character with cleric and went for the cleric/rogue PrC in Complete Adventurer ("Darksomething Infiltrator" IIRC). That did work quite a bit better.

 

[Ipissimus]

They talk a bit about stretching out powers, special abilities and feats over all levels of a class.

You know, this is the BAD thing about Podcasts. Referring to them is really heinous.

Ok, if I feel up to it I'll see if I can make a transcript of the relevent section.

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, listened to the podcast, and I have to say that I heard nothing indicating 3E-style multiclassing is in. At no point did they mention anything about "taking levels in" other classes, except in the context of 3rd edition. They only mention "combining classes," which could mean anything from 2E-style to 3E-style to class training feats to something completely different. Here's a transcript of the relevant bit:

Noonan: The next question is from Sebastian Morele, who asks, "I wonder how multiclassing will be implemented in Fourth Edition? Will it be as flexible as in Third Edition?"

Mearls: That's an interesting question, because I'm not exactly sure how much I can talk about right now, but it is probably not quite as flexible in the sense that... in Third Edition, you could just take one level from every class you could care to find. We're doing away with that, mainly because there were issues with class design--that it forced you to maybe spread out class abilities a little more than you wanted to, because you always had to worry that someone could take one level in this class. So it's sort of annoying to think, "Well, I'm a monk, and maybe there are these iconic monk abilities that I have to wait till second, third, or fourth level to get, just because we didn't want someone stealing that."

Noonan: Right. In other words, the multiclass rules place some significant constraints on class design--

Mearls: Exactly.

Noonan: --and really, class is primary to D&D, so you want to let classes be as unfettered as you can manage.

Mearls: Exactly. And that's sort of the big change; because even when we designed it, we did build the classes first, then said, "How can we make these guys multiclass?" Because we wanted--the class is the heart and soul of any class-based game. If they're not interesting, then the game isn't going to work.

So, now with multiclassing... it's still in. You can still combine classes. It's just a little bit more, I guess I'd say, controlled. We are actively designing the benefits you get when you multiclass. You're no longer just looking at the class advancement table and copying stuff down. The rules more dictate, "Okay, you decided to multiclass into fighter, here's what you get because of that." If you want to go further, then it says, "Okay, you're deeper into fighter, now here's what you get."

So that allows us to let the class table and the class features function properly. And then, the interesting thing, that lets us say, "Well, what does a multiclass fighter actually learn? And then at what rate?" And that doesn't happen at the same rate as what the class is giving, so it gives us a little more flexibility in design.

And the nice thing is that since we have more control over it, we can make things like the fighter/wizard work more effectively than, say--oh, rolling up a 10th-level guy, I only have caster level 3--it's hard to make that work without spells specifically designed for that character.

Noonan: Yeah, I think... speaking as broadly as possible about multiclassing, I think it's accurate to say that it's more flexible in terms of "splashing" the multiclass, of splashing a second class into your mix. It's probably not as flexible as in Third Edition for sort of "deep" multiclassing. However, a lot of those "deep" multiclassing options in Third Edition were bogus. (laughs) I mean, would get you killed in the dungeon. A wizard 5/cleric 5 is in big trouble in a 10th-level dungeon.

Mearls: Yeah.

(And my God, those guys talk fast. My respect for professional stenographers just went up by a factor of several hundred. I type 89 words per minute, and I had them playing back at half speed, and I was still having trouble keeping up.)

 

[Ipissimus]

The verdict is in: Podcasts suck.

It was probably this line: So, now with multiclassing... it's still in. That led me to believe they were probably doing multiclassing like they used to, only hacked down to accomodate the unified progression system. I still think that's possible from what they're saying, but I'll agree that it could also be possible that Class Training Feats are the only source of multiclassing in the edition.

If it's true that class training feats are all you've got... not so good. Good for everyone who wanted to take a level or two of a class, bad for people who wanted more options. Not that it'll stop me from playing 4E, but it's a loss.

 

[Dausuul]

The verdict is in: Podcasts suck.

Amen to that. I wish they'd just hold an IM chat session and post the transcript instead. I'd even volunteer to clean up the text for them.

The reason I think 4E multiclass = class training feats is that it would be excessively clunky to have two different systems for combining classes. We know there are class training feats, so it stands to reason that the new multiclassing system is built off of those in some fashion; especially given that they say the new system works well for "splashing," not so well for "deep" multiclassing.

When you get right down to it, I don't think it's really that different from 3E. Yeah, you could go "deep" in 3E, but like Noonan said, that was usually a bogus option. Most of the effective choices for multiclassing involved splashing--or, to use the common 3E term, "dipping." The only way to do "deep" multiclassing and make it sorta work was to take one of the prestige classes like Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge, and even then it was usually weaksauce compared to sticking with one class the whole way.

(Of course, part of that was because spells in 3E were so ungodly powerful that virtually nothing could justify giving up access to a higher level of spellcasting.)

 

[AZRogue]

I don't know, I'd like some robust multiclassing. But, at the same time, I really hate it when characters take a level of this and a level of that, and another level of this other thing, so that they can get 2-weapon fighting, movement increase, rage, trapfinding, and everything else.

If this was ME, how I would handle it? Glad you asked!

First, Abilities are roughly the same across the board. At a given level there are the at-wills and the encounter powers and the once daily powers, right? So, I would do this:

1. Feats which allowed you to copy certain aspects of the other Classes iconic "role". After, of course, an INITIAL FEAT which let you (let's take the Rogue) take one of the Class's Paths.

So, let's say our 5th level Wizard picked up the ROGUE MULTICLASSING FEAT (of doom). He then selects Trickster Rogue, and gets that ability. Later, with more Feats, he can select other things, such as his Save bonus and/or hit point progression.

2. Second, once that initial multiclass feat is chosen, he would then be able to buy abilities from both character Classes. If he gets, say, 1 Encounter and 1 At-Will Power at 6th level he could choose one of those from his Wizard's Powers and the other from the Rogue Powers, up to and including those available for level 6 characters.

And that's it. I think it's good enough to work and after another shot of tequila I'm going to try it. I expect Mearls to come edit my post soon to destroy this information before it can spread to the hungry masses.

 

[Ipissimus]

The part I disagree with most is that the Cleric/Wizard is going to get you killed. Of course, this is what we had the Mystic Theurge PrC for, to mitigate that somewhat. Best character I ever played.

Ok, some things we can hope for then.

1. Truckloads of Feats for every character.
2. Short 'Feat Bushes' that allow you to pick and choose the benefits gained according to your level. (I'm not asking for EVERYTHING all at once. Just the ability to steer my characters towards what I want)
3. Progressively 'deeper' feats. (1 feat gives you one bonus, 2 feats gives you 2 total bonuses, 3 feats give you 4 total bonueses, 4 feats give you 5 total bonuses, etc.)

Might even have to try my hand at a 'Gestalt' style system if it comes to that.

AZRogue: Great idea.