Multiclassing - no power swap feats to choose MC powers??

[Ariuss]

I must admit that I haven't fully read all the new books, but I quickly noticed the changes to the multiclassing. Generally I like the concept but not all the implementation.

What I keep coming back to is that you have to spend feats to swap for powers of your second class. This does several things
1) Consumes feats but does not really give you any incremental benefit (you are giving up a power too!!).
2) In my opinion it overly limits the amount of second class powers you can select.

In my mind this amounts to a penalty for multiclassing.

What do people think about allowing more flexibility by simply opening up the 2nd class powers (with level limits of course) for selection when gaining new powers or retraining. This would then remove the need for multiclass power swap feats.

As far as I can see, my suggestion for this house rule would still be balanced as it doesn't give any more powers. You could have more powers from your second class but at the cost of powers from your 1st class (so it should even out).

Additionally this doesn't weaken multiclass characters by forcing them to spend the extra feats.

Would this unbalance things? I must think the devs had good reason for not doing this? So, am I missing something here?

As a related note. It seems to me that paragon multiclassing doesn't quite stack up with the other paragon paths. Any suggestions/opinions on that are appreciated to.

 

[Ariuss]

Well, it has taken me less than a day to see the folly of my ways. Gasp!!

For example, if a multiclass character could swap as many powers as desired with the 2nd class you can get some weird things. I was looking at the paladin class and imagining it with 1 feat used (as in my OP) and having all wizard powers. Sure this "paladin" wouldn't have any more powers than any other character BUT you would essentially have a tough heavily armored wizard that might even make a better wizard than the actual wizard class. Meh, clearly that is not good.

I'm leaning towards having one extra feat required for power swapping in addition to the base multiclassing feat. Thus one extra feat is spent as a deterrent. Additionally I'm thinking I might allow free swapping with the second class powers BUT limit it to up to half from the second class (or maybe just one third with a minimum of 1 of each type). Additionally I might include level limits.
At-Will power at any level
Encounter powers at 4th level
Utility powers at 8th level
Daily powers at 10th level.

This is similar to the core rules but uses less feats, allows more powers to swap (but not all!!) and allows for one at-will power immediately. It would allow better "blending" with the second class (rather than just "dipping"). However, I think this will still encourage people to pick the class they want most as their first class rather than trying to abuse it.

This approach makes paragon multiclassing pointless and I'm ok with that as it is sub-par anyways. This way, everyone takes an interesting paragon path. Yay!!

I'm also considering some other ideas...I dunno if these are good ideas or not...just considering at this point
1) reducing the power if the first multiclass feats so that they don't give an extra power. Or atleast reviewing these so that they all just give some very limited access to a class feature from the 2nd class. Maybe make this flexible so that it is the players choice (see point 3 below)
2) Not giving access to implements upon multiclassing. You wouldn't get access to extra weapons or armor, so why should you get free use of implements. Instead I would make these usable through feats in a similar fashion as weapons.
3) Allowing multiclass characters to access to class features of the 2nd class through feats. Balance has to be considered here so that characters don't immediately choose these over the other feats. Stronger class features should be gained first in a "limited" fashion with a heroic feat and then later in full with paragon feats. Really strong class features maybe should require a third feat (epic) to get full access to.
"limited" fashion could be stuff like, encounter features are instead treated as daily, or bonuses are halved (or even one third), or for class features with multiple effects only allow a subset of these effects, etc

Gonna think about this some more, I think there is potential to have more interesting multiclassing without unbalancing things.

 

[Samurai]

A single "Advanced Training" feat is how I decided to go too:


New Feat: Advanced Training (Req: an initial Multiclassing feat, a 15 in the stat required for this class) – You gain the effects of all 3 power swap feats. So, at 4th level you may swap 1 Encounter power, at 8th level you may swap 1 Utility power, and at 10th level you may swap 1 Daily Attack power. In addition, you gain 1 minor class ability or power upon taking this feat:

Cleric Choose 1 level 1 at will prayer as an Encounter power.

Fighter Once per encounter until the end of your next turn, add your Wis bonus to any Opportunity attack rolls when using your chosen type of weapon (1h or 2h). You stop any moving opponent.

Paladin Use Lay on Hands as an Encounter power

Ranger Choose a Fighting Style (although weaker than a full Ranger’s fighting styles, these qualify you for the Paragon Paths and powers). If you choose Ranged style, you get the Prime Shot ability once per Encounter until the end of your next turn (+1 with ranged attacks if you are closer to the target than other allies) If you already have the Prime Shot ability from your base class, this stacks with it. If you choose the 2 Weapon style, you may use 1 handed weapons in your off hand as if it were an off-handed weapon.

Rogue Once per Encounter, you may use the Rogue Weapon Talent until the end of your next turn.

Warlock Use Warlock’s Curse as an Encounter power, lasts until the end of your next turn

Warlord Choose 1 form of Commanding Presence. You may use it once per Encounter, until the end of your next turn.

Wizard Choose 2 of the 4 Cantrips. You may cast them as Encounter powers.


Paragon Multiclassing – In order to take the Multiclass Paragon Path or a Paragon Path from your secondary class, you must have the Advanced Training Feat. The at will power gained at 11th level is an additional power, it does not replace one of your at will powers. Also, you may use an Action Point to regain any power or ability from your multiclass that has an Encounter frequency that you have already used this encounter. At 16th level, you may choose 1 bonus power (Encounter, Daily Attack, or Utility) from the secondary class’ list, of 16th level or lower.