Multiclassing Sorceror and Wizard?

[LazerPointer]

One of my characters threw me for a loop a couple of days back by declaring that he wants his Lvl. 1 Sorceror to gain a level of Wizard. I tried to gently talk him away from it, but he's gung-ho.

I think it would be a pain keeping track of all the spells available and used, and I don't like the idea of it-- either you cast spells innately or you have to study it, but both? seems weird to me.

I'm thinking that the best way to arrive at something we could both live with would be to tweak the class enough to be simpler and interesting.

Any ideas?

 

[Buttercup]

Before I comment on ways to handle such a build, let me make a few general points.

One of the problems with the sorcerer is that the official class is a one trick pony. Even the 3.5 tweaks didn't really fix that. Perhaps your player's desire to play a sorc/wiz is coming out of his realization that the standard sorcerer isn't good enough. Talk to your player and find out if that's the issue.

If it isn't, then I'd insist that the player justify the character by coming up with a bio that explains it. Also, if the player were even slightly untrustworthy or munchkin-y, I wouldn't allow this. Life is too short to suspect your player of hanky-panky with his spell casting. Now, I can think of several builds, just offf the top of my head, that would be not only legit, but interesting. So I don't think you should disallow it out of hand, unless what I said above applies.

So let's look at specifics, shall we?

First, if the character takes the spell with one class, you should probably disallow learning it in the other class. Otherwise keeping track could become a nightmare, even for a well intentioned player. Next, I think I'd recommend that the sorcerer spells all be related to a specific theme, like an element, or summoning, or what have you. Another possibility would be if the wizard spells were all utility stuff, and the sorcerer spells were all for combat. Keep in mind that while such a character would be able to cast many spells each day, it would take forever to get the really powerful ones. So if you broke it down in any of the ways I suggested above, the character might actually be balanced.

That's all I can think of at the moment, except to suggest that you dig around in this forum for all the different alternative sorcerer builds.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I can't see any problem with it other than the character will be horribly underpowered because the two classes don't stack for caster level or anything else. I can't imagine what benefit he thinks he is going to get. Is the idea to take one level of wizard and then continue as sorcerer, or to keep 1 level of sorcerer and then the rest as wizard or (perish the thought) advance them both equally?

Basically it is about as unplayable and likely unenjoyable combination as I could imagine!

 

[LightPhoenix]

Personally I can't see any problem with it other than the character will be horribly underpowered because the two classes don't stack for caster level or anything else.

I would personally allow the levels to stack for caster level and familiar advancement.

 

[scholz]

I would certainly allow it, but caution the player that the spell levels do not stack.

I think a Sorcerous Mage would be an interesting PRC (like the Mystic Theurge).
Say you once you reach a certain level (3rd level Sorceror, and 3rd level Wizard) spells you can gain a level of Sorcerous Mage and add to both of them. It makes some sense to me.

Alterantively you might consider the MAgister Class from Arcana Unearthed. It has many of the features of both. A large spell list (a la Wizards) but flexible spell casting (a la Sorcerer). Check it out.

 

[Ibram]

not only will the spells be hard to keep track of (even harder the wizard/cleric combinations) but the character would be rather underpowered for his level (a 10 wiz/10 Sor is no match for a 20 wiz or a 20 Sor).

now if hes planning to take 1 level in sor and the rest in wiz he may just be looking to be able to cast magic missile or mage armor at a whim. If hes planning to go 1 wiz and the rest in sor then... well that realy doesnt make much sense.

 

[Nyeshet]

I agree with the Sorcerous Mage idea. As another stated, a Sor 10 / Wiz 10 is nothing compared with a straight Wiz 20 or Sor 20.

Hmm, I can see being a Sor 3 / Wiz 17, though. Basically it would be a Wiz 17 with a few spell-like abilities (up to 6 castings from a list of 5 cantrip spell-like abilities, and up to 5 castings of 3 1st level spell-like abilities). That would be good flavor if 1) the sorcerer levels were spread out (1 every five levels or so, so the PC doesn't fall to far behind the party), and 2) you do not allow a Sorcerous Mage PrC. The PrC idea is innately better, of course, but I can see how some DMs might not like the idea.

A theme for the sorcerer is nice, but not necessarily necessary. I usually give them a minor bloodline instead of a familiar. (Thus more differences between the Sor and Wiz, and it also helps explain the sources of the innate magic). I also give Sor the skill UMD, but that has long been a house rule. Hmm, if a theme is used, base it on the bloodline (fey bloodline: enchantments and illusions, etc; dragon bloodline: all based around a particular energy (ie: breath weapon of ancestor; and so on).

Actually, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of a Wiz 17 / Sor 3 (for an NPC). Imagine, always having low level defense / offence; arrested and spellbook taken? No problem! (assuming low level guards, etc) Of course, it would work better if the Wiz took Spell Mastery a time or two (for higher level spells).

But give real consideration to the Sorcerous Mage. I don't know how well it will balance, but as the Mystic Theurge barely breaks even it shouldn't be too over-powering. Do not, under any circumstances, allow the PC to be a SMg* if the player has shown signs of munchkinism in the past!

* SMg = Sorcerous Mage. It does not = Super Mage! Despite its potential for abuse at low to mid levels, it really starts to fall behind at higher levels. Remember that Sor receive spells a level late. A Sor 5 / Wiz 5 / SMg 10 can cast as a Wiz 15 / Sor 15. That means no 8th level Sor spells. Although I'll admit that the sheer number of low and mid level spells likely makes up for having only 1 8th level spell and no 9th level spells. Remember, even after 20 levels the class only has 4 7th level spells - as many as a Wiz 19 and only 1 more (known) than a Sor 20. Thus, it barely breaks even for 7th level spells in its composite classes - 4 levels later.

Get back to us with the final results, please. What ideas will work for you? (minor bloodline w/ or w/o a familiar; SMg PrC; ...)

 

[Wilphe]

If you are taking Mystic Theuge as a guide then then you could qualify with second level spells in each at Sor 4 / Wiz 3


That would give you:

Sor 4 / Wiz 6 / SMg 10, or Wizard 16 / Sor 14 .

or maybe:

Sor 7 / Wiz 3/ SMg 10, which is Sorcerer 17 / Wizard 13.

You can get to 8th spell level in one class and 7th in another with this, but their isn't anyway to get 9th level spells at all.

 

[Thanee]

I see absolutely no problem here. Powerwise he will only weaken himself, so that can hardly be a problem.

Bookkeeping? Don't see the problem here either. He just has to write down more spells, not different to a Mystic Theurge, just has to take care to write two seperate spell lists.

I'd just let him use the Mystic Theurge tweaked for two arcane classes (and call it Mystic Arcanist or whatever).
The MT is really bad enough as is, no need to punish him further!

Of course a MT Sorcerer/Cleric would be much better, since he would be able to access a complete new branch of spells and still be able to combine spontaneous and prepared casting.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RangerWickett]

E.N.Publishing's Elements of Magic, which is set to have a revision come out in about two weeks, has an alternate spell-building system, so it might not be right entirely for you. However, we do have a way to stack spellcasting levels from different classes. You add together the total caster levels from each of your spellcasting classes, and consult a table that shows you how much magic points (MP) you have to spend on spells.

Basically, if you're a 4th level wizard and you take one level of sorcerer, your caster level would be 5, and you'd have the MP for a 5th level spellcaster (we ran with sort of a middle line between sorcerer and wizard). You could use MP to prepare wizard spells in advance, or you could cast sorcerer spells on the fly.