Multiclassing.

[Olfactatron]

I don't actually have problem with people who do that. I do that more than most people in my group. I just feel that the game shouldn't be designed intentionally to encourage it, as this marginalizes the people who aren't interested in doing that more than is necessary.

I fully agree.

 

[Falling Icicle]

[Edit] Nevermind.

 

[neceros]

No, at that point, it was a character.

This is a point of view debate, which isn't a debate.

Being able to duel wield greatswords is a character trait. If you based your character on that trait and gave it more meaning, then that's your character.

 

[hong]

More seriously, the point of a class-n-level based system is the pre-defined buckets. Unless the buckets are exceptionally broad (and I liked the Smart/Tough/Fast hero division), many concepts won't fit.

Exactly. The buckets are no longer broad, so the multiclassing mechanic has more work to do.

 

[AtomicPope]

4 warrior classes in 6 levels is hardly the worst kind of min/maxing in 3e.

You should have seen the gestalt campaign I ran. One guy had a rogue/druid/monk what would turn into a flying giant squid and pounce on something with roughly 15 attacks each gaining sneak attack for something like 105d6 sneak attack. That's not only game breaking, a flying ninja squid is also incredibly silly. But, hell, what good is a game if you can't have fun with it.

Is it still fun when a DM uses characters like that to TPK in a single round?

 

[AtomicPope]

This is a point of view debate, which isn't a debate.

Being able to duel wield greatswords is a character trait. If you based your character on that trait and gave it more meaning, then that's your character.

Precisely.


Any game that encourages number-crunching and dice rolling is ROLL-playing game, not a Roleplaying Game.

 

[hong]

More narrowly defined how? combat roles are basically the same, meatshield, caster, skirmisher, boss. The ideas behind the characters are basically the same.

WTF?

You don't have to force the mechanics of the game to fit the flavor of you character, you can change the flavor of the mechanics to fit the character.

Multiclassing is how you change the mechanics to fit the character. But multiclassing is now weaker than before.

 

[Ximenes088]

Exactly. The buckets are no longer broad, so the multiclassing mechanic has more work to do.

I don't think we can say this until we see the power lists. Each class is going to have about 80 powers, as I understand it. I think it will be completely possible to build a lot of tweaked concepts entirely out of well-chosen standard powers, with no need whatsoever to reach outside of the class. A swashbuckling rogue doesn't _need_ to buy Fighter multiclassing; he just grabs rapier proficiency and chooses the rogue powers that give him the nicest swashy flavor. In fact, multiclassing into fighter may actively hinder him if the rogue power list gives him enough choices to meaningfully fill out his power list.

 

[Olfactatron]

With all respect, telling people that if they don't like to play D&D the same way you do, they should just find another game is elitist and rude. Your way of enjoying the game isn't the "right" way.

Correction, your D&D hasn't ever been about characters. Mine has and so has alot of peoples' D&D. Your way is no more "right" than ours is "wrong." D&D can be a hack-and-slash dunegeon crawl, and it can also be a very rich, story-filled game.

You're missing my point. I didn't say there's a right and wrong way to play the game. I'm saying that creating a fully rounded out character isn't as well supported in core D&D rule set as it is in other games. I was merely suggesting that if that's the aspect of RPG's he likes there are other games that do it better. Don't mistake a criticism of the rules set as an attack on how you play the game.
Personally, I find D&D way, WAY, more interesting if there are rich interpersonal plotlines behind the adventure I'm having. All I'm saying is that kind of thing is external to the rules set.

 

[neceros]

WTF?



Multiclassing is how you change the mechanics to fit the character. But multiclassing is now weaker than before.

That's never how I saw it. Let's take the Warlock, for example. My party hated the Warlock (in 3.5) because it was too draculaisk. I made a character that was the warlock class, but instead made him more Dragon-like (This was before Dragon Magic.)

Flavor change without multiclassing.