Multiple Ability Dependance and other tall tales

[JustaPlayer]

A good DM can nuetralize any class's abilities. Balance is inbetween the classes, not depdant on the DM's ability to make it worthless a as dM can do that to anyone.

Monks are not frontline fighters, I've been saying that for a few pages, thanks for providing the mathimatical proof.

Yes, but I also showed why you "hit and run" tatic is also viable. Tell me what they can do without some good stats in numberous catagoies and still be viable to play. Any monk who tried a hit and run with me would get pasted. I wouldn't even need to focus on it. So they aren't good in combat. Skills? Nope. Spells? Nope. Bardic music? Nope. Hit and run? Nope. The hit and run only works if the DM doesn't adjust for the tactic. The Monk shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with a fighter, but he should at least be reasonably good at something.

 

[Merlion]

Then what are they, Crothian? If not support frontliners and support sneaks, what the hell are monks for other than watching their less-magic-resistant allies drop like flies and then running away to waste the party's funds on many Raise Deads just because the monks are of little help in combat?

This would be my question as well.


However, I think Monks can be deccent combatants...but not with mediocre ability scores. A Fighter can manage fine with just good Str and Con. A Monk cannot. A Monk needs Str, and Wis, and Dex, and Con. No, he doesnt have to start with a 16 in each one, but he's going to need at least a 14 in at least most of those. And most of those stats are going to need to increase steadily to keep up with enemies.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Love the way the title of the thread changed but it looks like 60% of the people greatly disagree with you on that, but hey, what do they know?

 

[LostSoul]

Isn't the role of a monk on the battlefield to use grapple and disarming tactics? I've never played one, but I think they'd have to stick to their tricks if they wanted to mess around in the front lines. Playing an elven ranger, I learned how dangerous it is to have a d8 hit die.

I think that some classes are better at their role with 25 point-buy than other classes with 25 point-buy. Wizards and Sorcerers, for example, can still be very effective with a 14 or 15 Int/Cha (respectively) and an 8 in everything else. Not so for the other classes, even Fighters; and let's see you play a monk with 14 in your stat of choice and 8 in everything else.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wizards and Sorcerers, for example, can still be very effective with a 14 or 15 Int/Cha (respectively) and an 8 in everything else.

Nope. They'll die (or be knocked out) every encounter, nearly a guarantee with 8 Con and 8 Dex. I'd go so far as to say first round if the enemy has anything ranged.

 

[LostSoul]

Nope. They'll die (or be knocked out) every encounter, nearly a guarantee with 8 Con and 8 Dex. I'd go so far as to say first round if the enemy has anything ranged.

And 1 or 2 hit points is a big difference here? Any spellcaster (edit: d4 hit die character) who is open to attack is screwed. Sure, the level of screwed-ness changes slightly, but not so much that they are suddenly ineffective.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And 1 or 2 hit points is a big difference here? Any spellcaster (edit: d4 hit die character) who is open to attack is screwed. Sure, the level of screwed-ness changes slightly, but not so much that they are suddenly ineffective.

It's a huge difference. 8 Con to 12 Con more than doubles HP for the Wizard (starting at level 3).

 

[LostSoul]

It's a huge difference. 8 Con to 12 Con more than doubles HP for the Wizard (starting at level 3).

Well, yeah, but both 6 hit points and 12 hit points are pretty crappy. That's what Invisibility, False Life, and Mirror Image are for.

Edit: I'm not saying that a Wizard with one 14 or 15 and the rest all 8s is a good character, but one that can still be effective - more so than most other classes can be.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, yeah, but both 6 hit points and 12 hit points are pretty crappy. That's what Invisibility, False Life, and Mirror Image are for.

Edit: I'm not saying that a Wizard with one 14 or 15 and the rest all 8s is a good character, but one that can still be effective - more so than most other classes can be.

The difference between 12 and 6 is the difference between being killed if the enemy puts an effort into it and being killed by accident by a Burning Hands or such while they were trying to do something else

 

[LostSoul]

The difference between 12 and 6 is the difference between being killed if the enemy puts an effort into it and being killed by accident by a Burning Hands or such while they were trying to do something else

Fighter: "Nature guy, heat up this stew pot for me."

Druid: "It's Druid, not Nature Guy, idiot. Not planning on getting Combat Expertise, I bet."

Druid: * Casts heat metal *

Wizard comes wandering in, 18 - 30 seconds later: "Mmm, that smells great! I'll just grab this metal handle here - "

Druid: "No!"

Wizard: (takes 2d4 damage, dies)

Fighter: "Poor bastard. Killed by a stew pot."