Multiple Ability Dependance and other tall tales

Do some core classes fit the Multiple Ability Dependance?

  • Yes, all of them

    Votes: 4 2.4%
  • Yes, about half of them

    Votes: 27 16.0%
  • Yes, a few of them do

    Votes: 106 62.7%
  • None of them do

    Votes: 32 18.9%

JustaPlayer said:
As far as Barbarians getting in the 20s. I don't do it when playing the class, but as far as I know the is nothing restricting them from wearing heavy armor.

Aside from them not getting heavy armor profeciency and some of the abilities not working in heavy armor?

If Monks aren't suppose to be on the front lines what are they really good at? You can't sneek up on them and they get to evade spells and other things like that, but when it come for usefulness, there just isn't much if it isn't suppose to be fighting. No skills like a thief or bard, no spells like other classes.

They have grteat movement, great defenses. Staying alive is useful last I checked. So, are monks considered MAD becasue no one knows how to use them and so they try to make them into something they are not and that requires high stats?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Rystil Arden said:
As for MAD--the core classes don't really have it, but some multiclass combos definitely definitely do.
I think it's a bigger issue for, say, Spirits Shamans or Favored Souls.
 

Jdvn1 said:
I think it's a bigger issue for, say, Spirits Shamans or Favored Souls.
That's quite true, but they aren't core, so I didn't include them. It's also true that for some of the new base classes I created, I gave them MAD on purpose as a balancing factor, for instance.
 


Crothian said:
we can talk about other classes, but many of the base classes that are not core are not blanaced right to begin with
I think what the people who say that Paladins or Monks have MAD are saying in this threadis not that they need tons of high stats to pull off those classes but rather that a 32 PB Paladin will compare more favourably to a 32 PB Barbarian than a 25 PB Paladin does to a 25 PB Barbarian.
 

Rystil Arden said:
I think what the people who say that Paladins or Monks have MAD are saying in this threadis not that they need tons of high stats to pull off those classes but rather that a 32 PB Paladin will compare more favourably to a 32 PB Barbarian than a 25 PB Paladin does to a 25 PB Barbarian.


True but I still have the idea that you play the character you want then roll the dice and let the dice fall where they may (KODT) Why not play that way, its kind of use the hand your given.
 

hawkwing2k5 said:
True but I still have the idea that you play the character you want then roll the dice and let the dice fall where they may (KODT) Why not play that way, its kind of use the hand your given.
If by that you mean that you roll stats first before committing to a character class choice, then I agree. If I rolled a particularly polarised set of stats (18 10 10 8 8 6 for instance), I wouldn't pick a Paladin or Monk.
 

The idea that a Paly or a monk needs all these high stats is pure BS simply because the player is too lazy to think of a concept of the class or the role of the character. Are you playing a character with weakness and faults or are you playing a wanna be godling that is in mortal form.

You may not want to be a godling in mortal form, but you may still want to be a mechanically effective character.

If character concept and role were all that mattered at all, we wouldnt need any mechanics...and we wouldnt be playing a role playing game, we'd be acting.


Some classes do use and therefore need deccent scores in more stats than others, in order to function fully (or at least remotely well) as a member of their class.

A Wizard for instance could have a 16 Int, a 10 in Wis, Dex, Con and 8's in Str and Cha and still function perfectly well as a wizard (although be at somewhat of a disadvantage as a character overall since the game does assume one will probably have higher stats than that).

However, a paladin, or monk, or bard or ranger with a 16 and even all 10s and no 8s would be unable to really fully function as a member of his class. Or rather, some of his class abilities and functions would do him little or no good.

Even a fighter or barbarian or rogue with such stats would have a hard time.


To be competitive, a paladin needs Cha, Str, Con and Wis. Str and Con for combat, Cha for virtually all his class abilities, and Wis for spells. Now he doesnt need to worry much about save DCs, but still needs at least a 14 to access his best spells.

A ranger needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis. Str, Dex and Con for combat and skills. Wis is probably a touch more important for the Ranger since many of his key skills and his tracking, as well as spells are based on Wis.

A Bard needs Cha, Int, Dex at the minimum..Cha for spells, class abilities, and many skills, Int for Bardic Knowledge, skills and skill points and Dex for skills and defense. If you want to try and use any of what combat ability the bard has you might need a little Str too.

A Monk needs Str, Con, Dex and Wis the first three for combat, and Wis for combat and essentially all class abilities.


Even a Fighter really needs both Str and Con, and for feat purposes is well served to have at least a 13 in Int and Dex. Other specifics will vary depending on what combat style(s) you want to persue. Likewise, a Rogue needs Dex, and Int for sure, and could really use a bit of Str as well.


Now of course as time goes on and levels are gained boosting abilities isnt to terribly hard. However, its still easiest for the more or less total casters...all they really need to do is mostly put their increases in, and get the best item they can for, their casting stat. Its a bit harder for a class like a paladin who not only needs 3 or 4 stats but needs at least a couple of them to increase to continue to be useful.


I'm not entirely sure what the point or context of the question is. But some classes do need mid or high scores in more abilities than others. In a stat-restrictive campaign, like a low-point point buy or one where ability increasing items are rare, paladins, bards, rangers, monks would certainlly be penalized/effected by it more so than other classes. At the other end, the prime casters would be least effected.
 

Crothian said:
we can talk about other classes, but many of the base classes that are not core are not blanaced right to begin with


I've got news for you...all the core classes are not balanced right either.
 

Crothian said:
Aside from them not getting heavy armor profeciency and some of the abilities not working in heavy armor?
So I take a feat and lose +10 movement and I get a grand killing machine. A lot of people would take that trade

Crothian said:
They have grteat movement, great defenses. Staying alive is useful last I checked.
So I have great speed, that will keep me alive as I run away because my whole party is dead because I couldn’t help them without getting housed. The defenses of a Monk are good against poisons and magic. The speed is not going to help mush in an actual fight. I guess I could run up make a single (missing) attack and try to get out of range praying that the AOO coming doesn’t hit my low AC. Maybe I might be able to run up to a wiz/sor while shrugging of the spell damage with my evasion/improved evasion. I would be able to stand a chance against them as I would have better AC and BAB. Hope I can get around the meat shield of fighters, barbarians, rangers and such, and still be in time to help my party.

So without some decent stats in a few categories we have a character who can’t:
Fight, (Fighter, Ranger, Palidin, Barbarian), can’t steal or sneak (Rogue), can’t cast harmful spells (Wiz/Sor), can’t heal (Druid, Cleric), can’t support chars with boosts (Bard). Hey but I sure can stay alive if I don’t fight anyone. Then I can run away. Monk is not a support character.

Rystil Arden said:
I think what the people who say that Paladins or Monks have MAD are saying in this threadis not that they need tons of high stats to pull off those classes but rather that a 32 PB Paladin will compare more favourably to a 32 PB Barbarian than a 25 PB Paladin does to a 25 PB Barbarian.
I agree with this.

Crothian said:
So, are monks considered MAD becasue no one knows how to use them and so they try to make them into something they are not and that requires high stats?
Tell me how you would use them.

Crothian said:
we can talk about other classes, but many of the base classes that are not core are not blanaced right to begin with
Depends. I try to compare them to the classes they most resemble. See what they gain, see what they give up. Giving up thing like BAB, Casting level, Saves, and HD type can be pretty significant to start off with. Then see how the rest of the abilities stack up. I find that most of the ones I run across aren’t over powered when it comes to fighter types or rogue types. Pure spellcasting classes are more powerful than wiz/sor, but I have a real problem with the Sor in the first place. (Wiz gets feat, skill points, and the ability to cast any spell her learns compared to the Sor casting more per day of very limited number of spells? *Weak*). I think the Wiz can use a little boost besides that, so of course it goes without saying for the Sor. Spells are fine but other characters can shrug off most of the effects at higher level due to better saves anyway. I would be interested in which “other classes” you have run across that you think are over powered. Doesn’t matter the source, I probably have it if it’s fantasy.
 

Remove ads

Top