Multiple Questions about Charm, Dominate, and Thrall

[Aluvial]

As the DM, if I cast a Charm Person spell on a PC, before any damage is done, can I control the PC to attack their own party?

Can this be done with the Dominate spell? What does "anything against the targets nature" actually entail? Does this mean a saving throw each round?

What about the Thrall spell? Can this spell actually control a PC?

What about Psionics? Is there a psionic method for absolute control over a PC?


Thanks,

Aluvial

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

As the DM, if I cast a Charm Person spell on a PC, before any damage is done, can I control the PC to attack their own party?

Can this be done with the Dominate spell? What does "anything against the targets nature" actually entail? Does this mean a saving throw each round?

Charm person makes the target view the caster as a friend. AFAIK, he keeps the same attitude he already had to his friends.

If cast on a PC, he wouldn't fight the caster, and probably wouldn't fight the other party members. Perhaps he'd try and stop it - after all, it's 2 groups of his friends fighting?

Can be done with Dominate but 'against the target's nature' bit is difficult. Is it against a Fighters nature to fight something? Definitely against a pacifists... Are they the type who might attack their fellow party members? Comes down to a DM call.

Personally, I'd generally allow a save every round - tends to lead to really annoyed PCs if you take over their character for a whole fight and possibly get them killed. Not fun for anyone, IMO.

Psionics has mind controling stuff in it. IIRC, thrall is pretty near permenant.

 

[Ormraxes]

I can't find my Psionics Handbook right now, but I think the 9th level telepatic power Thrall would be the closest thing to absolute control, IIRC. If the target fails the save, he is permanently dominated. Only Disjunction (and possibly Psychic Surgery, can't remember) can remove it. The thrall gets a save at -10 to resist orders against his nature, but even if he makes the save the power does not end. It only allows the thrall to refuse this action, and save without the -10 penalty against similar orders in the future. The power also costs the psion 5000 xp to use. I'm not absolutely sure about all this, but I'm sure someone else on this board will set me straight if some of it is wrong .

 

[Aluvial]

I can't find my Psionics Handbook right now, but I think the 9th level telepatic power Thrall would be the closest thing to absolute control, IIRC. If the target fails the save, he is permanently dominated. Only Disjunction (and possibly Psychic Surgery, can't remember) can remove it. The thrall gets a save at -10 to resist orders against his nature, but even if he makes the save the power does not end. It only allows the thrall to refuse this action, and save without the -10 penalty against similar orders in the future. I'm not absolutely sure about all this, but I'm sure someone else on this board will set me straight if some of it is wrong .

That's correct. The shame is that these spells have changed drastically since their inception into the game.

I remember being able to charm a creature to fight off it friends or to at least defend the caster....

The new rules are ambiguous enough that a PC could claim that even being charmed was against his nature, and he would get a saving throw against a Domination effect.

I can see a caster saying, "throw yourself on your sword" or "jump off of this cliff" and the charmed guy resisting, even breaking the enchantment, but not even fighting against a former friend....

Well, that might be the ticket there. When the spell is cast you forget your previous affiliations in appreciation for you new ones... I'm sure that was how the spells were intended anyway.

By way of the example, no one in their right mind would face a pissed red dragon on his own, even for a friend, but a charmed or dominated guy would...


Any other opinions?


Aluvial

 

[Kaji]

As the DM, if I cast a Charm Person spell on a PC, before any damage is done, can I control the PC to attack their own party?

Can this be done with the Dominate spell? What does "anything against the targets nature" actually entail? Does this mean a saving throw each round?

What about the Thrall spell? Can this spell actually control a PC?

What about Psionics? Is there a psionic method for absolute control over a PC?


Thanks,

Aluvial

Pretty sure charm is not designed to turn a PC against his own party, or at least not right away. Here's how we play it:

Ok, I charm you. You now see me as your great friend, and all action or conversations I have with you are seen by you in thier most positive light. If it turns out I lied to you, it was to protect you. If I betrayed your friends, it was for a good reason. I do not command you, however. Over discource, I may be able to convince you that your other friends are false, and that you should betray them too, but not likely in combat. If I do charm you in combat, I may be able to convince you to cast a protective spell on me instead of one of your buddies, I may be able to convince you to attempt to defend me from your buddies using as non-lethal means as possible, or at the very least, I should be able to convince you to stand aside from the fray, and you and I can sort everything out when its all over...

Dominate: You do what I say, but you are not a willing participate. I tell you to attack the neighbors, you don't tell me that they have a secret passage to get out of harms way. Also, if you're not likely to attack the neighbors in the first place, new save at +2. I drag you with me into the dungeon and ask you to scout for me, you do it, no new save unless you have some religious barrier to scouting (or something like that). I think most actions do not get new saves, but evil acts for good/neutral creatures should, an dvice versa.

Thrall: I'm not sure if you mean Utter Thrall (Monte Cook) or Thrall from Psionics handbook. Utter Thrall from Monte Cook combines the two. Do whatever I say, and do it as if you were my best friend. That's killer...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can't find my Psionics Handbook right now...

3E SRD including Psionics.

Looks like you hit all the high points of Thrall.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

What other limitations are there on Dominate Person? Can I force the target to speak? Can I force them to say what I want them to say? Can I force them to not talk or not say something I don't want them to? Do they realize what they are doing? For example:

If I Dominate the king, and I make him give all his gold away to the poor:

1) What if his servants question him? What if they try and stop him (clearly they see something wrong here, as it's not his normal behavior to do so). Can I make the the king not respond to these questions? Or make him get upset ("Insulant fool, do not question me!")?

2) Will the king proceed with the action of giving away his gold, but in his mind wonder why he's doing it?

3) Dominate can last days. If I am not constantly "monitoring" the target, can he eventually warn others on his own? "Something isn't right here. I keep acting out of character. I must be dominated. Find the person responsible and kill them for me!"

4) After a course of action has been taken (ie, King gave away all his gold), will the target realize it? Can he then warn others that he was controlled into doing that? Assuming I don't command him to say/do otherwise...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As the DM, if I cast a Charm Person spell on a PC, before any damage is done, can I control the PC to attack their own party?

Yes. First off, charm makes anybody see your words in the best possible light, so tell the charm victim that you are being unjustly attacked by his friends, and he'll fight them.

However, he might use non-lethal tactics. Plus, you probably have to make an opposed Charisma check.

Can this be done with the Dominate spell? What does "anything against the targets nature" actually entail? Does this mean a saving throw each round?

It basically means a saving throw every time you give an order It might actually be a lot stronger than that (eg only if it interferes with their alignment).

What about the Thrall spell? Can this spell actually control a PC?

Never heard of it. I have heard of a thrall power though, which gives you control forever for an XP cost.

What about Psionics? Is there a psionic method for absolute control over a PC?

See above.

 

[Kesh]

0) Only if you specifically tell him to say those things. Dominate is essentially making the person obey your orders, not mental telepathy.

1) I would personally allow him a saving throw (as per the description) the first time it happens. If he fails, he comes up with some reason and continues. If he succeeds, he's resisted that order, though he's still Dominated.

2) Nope. Once Dominated, he'll consider your orders to be great ideas, provided he fails the saving throw if it's something he's strongly opposed to (like giving away all his treasury!)

3) See #2. As far as he's concerned, he's acting normally.

4) Once the Dominate wears off, it's a DM call. When his retainers confront him about it, he may A) still think it was a good idea, B) wonder if he made a mistake, C) realize he wasn't in his right mind, but blame it on something else, D) realize he wasn't in his right mind, and figure out he was under a spell.