D&D 5E Multiple reactions replacing Legendary Actions?!

[James Gasik]

you have the same issue with multiple reactions

Again, I'm not saying this is a good change, just positing a reason why WotC might feel the reason to make a change.

 

[mamba]

Again, I'm not saying this is a good change, just positing a reason why WotC might feel the reason to make a change.

that also makes it not a good reason though (which does not mean it cannot still be that reason)

 

[the Jester]

Except redundancy. They both serve exactly the same function in exactly the same way, they just have different names. There's no reason to give one creature both extra reactions and specific abilities they can do as reactions and give that same creature legendary actions. They'll likely ditch legendary actions, as apparently indicated by the time dragon not having any, and replace them with reactions.

Hard disagree about them being functionally the same, but it does seem likely that they're going away.

 

[overgeeked]

Hard disagree about them being functionally the same, but it does seem likely that they're going away.

Okay. Explain how they’re functionally different. The only real differences I can see are number (normally one reaction, normally multiple LA…but that’s resolved by giving creatures multiple reactions), slight timing difference (interrupt, end of turn), and reactions allowing opportunity attacks while LA do not. They’re different names for “the monster gets extra actions out of its turn and here’s a list of things it can do.” To me, that’s functionally the same.

 

[Stalker0]

As a dm my issue with this…reactions are hard to remember. I forget them all the time, especially when you have multiple monsters to run. LAs because they all have the same trigger (end of opponents turn) are easier for me to remember.

And if the reactions are all going to have the same trigger, well this is purely change for change sake.

My last note: man does anyone think that dragon seems lame for CR18? I was hoping to see more high level monsters worthy of the title, but that dragon still seems so generic

 

[overgeeked]

My last note: man does anyone think that dragon seems lame for CR18? I was hoping to see more high level monsters worthy of the title, but that dragon still seems so generic

Well, the CR system is completely busted so it makes sense. This isn’t a creature to put in front of a level 18 party. This is a creature to put in front of a level 12 party.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As a dm my issue with this…reactions are hard to remember. I forget them all the time, especially when you have multiple monsters to run. LAs because they all have the same trigger (end of opponents turn) are easier for me to remember.

And if the reactions are all going to have the same trigger, well this is purely change for change sake.

My last note: man does anyone think that dragon seems lame for CR18? I was hoping to see more high level monsters worthy of the title, but that dragon still seems so generic

Nope. Seems ok. As a DM I easily get overwhelmed when the monster is too conplicated to run. Especially when there are a few minions around.
Lair actions also help to spice everything up.
I just did an end fight and added legendary actions and lair actions to a young white dragon against a level 6 party. And that fight was quite dynamic immediately.

I'd be intersted to hear, what you want from a high level monster?

 

[Stalker0]

Nope. Seems ok. As a DM I easily get overwhelmed when the monster is too conplicated to run. Especially when there are a few minions around.
Lair actions also help to spice everything up.
I just did an end fight and added legendary actions and lair actions to a young white dragon against a level 6 party. And that fight was quite dynamic immediately.

I'd be intersted to hear, what you want from a high level monster?

To me the simplest way is to give such a legendary two spots in the initiative order, and have it go twice. No weird out of turn mechanics.

Beyond that, I do think high level boss monsters have to “break the system” in some ways like high level PCs do. The Marut for example has its auto hit attack. That is solid, no matter how high the fighter got this AC, no matter how much disadvantage and bardic penalties you throw on, the attack just hits. That’s cool and memorable.

Dragons just lack for coolness at high levels. They have a nifty breath, and that’s it. That’s fine in the low to mid levels, but once you’re in upper branch PCs have too many tricks.

For one dragons should be a lot tougher. 250 hp and a 19 AC is not tanky, it’s quite possible for a party to one round kill such a creature. That’s not what a boss monster should evoke, especially one known as a “living tank”

 

[UngeheuerLich]

To me the simplest way is to give such a legendary two spots in the initiative order, and have it go twice. No weird out of turn mechanics.

Beyond that, I do think high level boss monsters have to “break the system” in some ways like high level PCs do. The Marut for example has its auto hit attack. That is solid, no matter how high the fighter got this AC, no matter how much disadvantage and bardic penalties you throw on, the attack just hits. That’s cool and memorable.

Dragons just lack for coolness at high levels. They have a nifty breath, and that’s it. That’s fine in the low to mid levels, but once you’re in upper branch PCs have too many tricks.

For one dragons should be a lot tougher. 250 hp and a 19 AC is not tanky, it’s quite possible for a party to one round kill such a creature. That’s not what a boss monster should evoke, especially one known as a “living tank”

I guess, one round kills will become harder once smites and so on are limited to once per turn. I am sad that hex got rolled back to the 2014 version.

Lair action will guarantee 2 spots. And the weakening breath will double the dragon's effective hp.


I see where you are coming from and generally allowing two spots in the initiative order seems a good way to ensure that legendary monsters will act often enough.

I am just not convinced, that just increasing hp and armor makes a more fun encounter. I'd rather drop HP for more interesting things.

 

[the Jester]

Okay. Explain how they’re functionally different. The only real differences I can see are number (normally one reaction, normally multiple LA…but that’s resolved by giving creatures multiple reactions), slight timing difference (interrupt, end of turn), and reactions allowing opportunity attacks while LA do not. They’re different names for “the monster gets extra actions out of its turn and here’s a list of things it can do.” To me, that’s functionally the same.

One of the most important differences is that lots of things can take away your reactions, but not your legendary actions. Also, LAs don't need triggers. Also, you can vary the cost of them ("costs 2 legendary actions") and create tactically interesting and distinct choices for the DM.

That first one is huge, though.