eamon
Explorer
If the effect with the longest duration applies, then surely the last save is relevant?
Pages 269, 278 and 279 all state that you save against all active effects. Ongoing damage gets special treatment, so I'll disregard that right now, but excepting ongoing damage, the rule is clearly that you must save once for each effect.
If a target is affected by multiple powers that have the same effect but end at different times, the effect with the most time remaining applies.
So suppose a creature is under two effects: one causes him to glow green and be dazed, and the other to glow red and be dazed. Clearly, he must save against both effects separately, and each effect ends whenever its save comes up. Let's say the effects end at different times (green after one round, red after two rounds). Clearly then the dazed condition applies so long as the effect with the most time remaining applies.
Now, suppose the green/red glowing is flavor text, and the effects now simply read: dazed and cannot gain concealment. Now, two powers that have the same effect but end at (potentially) different times affect the creature. The rules clearly state that the effect with the most time remaining applies - this is natural and consistent since that the "shorter" effect simply fully overlaps with the longer effect.
What some people in this thread are suggesting is that two identical effects never actually affect a creature simultaneously. If you're affected the second time, the second effect and the first (identical effect) are completely merged into one - you make only one save, and it makes no sense to speak of "powers that have the same effect but end at different times" since there is only ever one ending time. This "merging" of powers isn't the same thing as applying the effect with the longest duration
This alternative interpretation is explicitly supported for ongoing damage - the rules say that when if you're taking ongoing 10 damage and gain ongoing 5 damage (of the same type) then you're simply taking ongoing 10 damage, but there's no support I can find for other effects.
I'd interpret the rules thus to say that all effects must be saved against separately - even if they affect a creature identically.
There's a consistency argument for avoiding the "merging" argument: what's worse, becoming dazed (save ends) or becoming dazed and immobilized (save ends both)? Clearly the latter. But if you use the "merging" approach, if you're already dazed and immobilized (save ends), then becoming dazed (save ends) is actually worse - now you have to manage two saves to avoid being dazed, whereas if you happened to be targeted by a power with an identical effect, the two effects durations would be merged.
On the other hand, there's obviously a simplicity argument in favor of "merging" identical effects - coupled with the observation that it probably doesn't matter very much for balance in almost all cases.
Regardless, I don't see the rules supporting the "merging".
Pages 269, 278 and 279 all state that you save against all active effects. Ongoing damage gets special treatment, so I'll disregard that right now, but excepting ongoing damage, the rule is clearly that you must save once for each effect.
If a target is affected by multiple powers that have the same effect but end at different times, the effect with the most time remaining applies.
So suppose a creature is under two effects: one causes him to glow green and be dazed, and the other to glow red and be dazed. Clearly, he must save against both effects separately, and each effect ends whenever its save comes up. Let's say the effects end at different times (green after one round, red after two rounds). Clearly then the dazed condition applies so long as the effect with the most time remaining applies.
Now, suppose the green/red glowing is flavor text, and the effects now simply read: dazed and cannot gain concealment. Now, two powers that have the same effect but end at (potentially) different times affect the creature. The rules clearly state that the effect with the most time remaining applies - this is natural and consistent since that the "shorter" effect simply fully overlaps with the longer effect.
What some people in this thread are suggesting is that two identical effects never actually affect a creature simultaneously. If you're affected the second time, the second effect and the first (identical effect) are completely merged into one - you make only one save, and it makes no sense to speak of "powers that have the same effect but end at different times" since there is only ever one ending time. This "merging" of powers isn't the same thing as applying the effect with the longest duration
This alternative interpretation is explicitly supported for ongoing damage - the rules say that when if you're taking ongoing 10 damage and gain ongoing 5 damage (of the same type) then you're simply taking ongoing 10 damage, but there's no support I can find for other effects.
I'd interpret the rules thus to say that all effects must be saved against separately - even if they affect a creature identically.
There's a consistency argument for avoiding the "merging" argument: what's worse, becoming dazed (save ends) or becoming dazed and immobilized (save ends both)? Clearly the latter. But if you use the "merging" approach, if you're already dazed and immobilized (save ends), then becoming dazed (save ends) is actually worse - now you have to manage two saves to avoid being dazed, whereas if you happened to be targeted by a power with an identical effect, the two effects durations would be merged.
On the other hand, there's obviously a simplicity argument in favor of "merging" identical effects - coupled with the observation that it probably doesn't matter very much for balance in almost all cases.
Regardless, I don't see the rules supporting the "merging".
