D&D 3E/3.5 Multiple Spell Effects (3.5)

[GakToid]

Multiple Spell Effects (3.5)

I did a brief search but couldn't find an answer to my questions. If these have already been answered, feel free to simply post a link.

1) Can someone describe the "sheets of sticky webbing" option that monstrous spiders can use. Specifically, what's the area of affect? (line, plane, area, etc) Second, assuming a creature is large enough to be caught in multiple "sheets" area of affect, how is the situation handled? Third, compare and contrast with the web spell.

2) An expansion on the second part of Question 1.
Players: 3rd level Wizard Alex has a 12 intelligence. 3rd level Wizard Bob has a 18 intelligence.

Scenario A: 20 foot wide hallway. Alex and Bob cast grease in adjacent 10 foot squares to cover the width of the hallway. An Ogre approaches. How many saves does the Ogre have to make? How often does the Ogre have to make saves?

W = wall
A = Alex
B = Bob
1 = Alex's grease spell
2 = Bob's grease spell
O = Ogre

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
      11
     OO1          A
     OO2          B
      22
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Scenario B: 15 foot wide hallway. Alex and Bob cast grease in adjacent 10 foot squares to cover the width of the hallway and overlap in the middle. An Orc approaches. How many saves does the Orc have to make? How often does the Orc have to make saves?

W = wall
A = Alex
B = Bob
1 = Alex's grease spell
2 = Bob's grease spell
3 = grease spell overlap
O = Orc

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
      11          A
      O3
      22          B
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Scenario C: Same as B except Alex and Bob are Druids and cast entangle. Can the Orc be entangled twice? Does it matter if both spells are in effect before the Orc enters the area? What if the Orc is already entangled by one spell before the second one is cast on him? What if Alex is a wizard and casts web and Bob is a druid and casts entangle?

-Gak Toid

 

[Someone]

IMO, all those examples are the same as if Alex and Bob both cast Reduce Person on the orc/ogre. It has to make separate saving throws, but the orc is either reduced or it´s not; in this case, the ogre it´s either prone or entangled or it´s not. There are not multiple states of proneness, so in this case there´s no need for stacking rules.

I admit that they are a bit weird, though, and I would make an ad-hoc call if I were DMing (only one saving throw against the highest DC)

 

[GakToid]

IMO, all those examples are the same as if Alex and Bob both cast Reduce Person on the orc/ogre. It has to make separate saving throws, but the orc is either reduced or it´s not; in this case, the ogre it´s either prone or entangled or it´s not. There are not multiple states of proneness, so in this case there´s no need for stacking rules.

I admit that they are a bit weird, though, and I would make an ad-hoc call if I were DMing (only one saving throw against the highest DC)

There is one difference. Casting reduce person is an instantaneous affect. You can't be subject to two castings of reduce person at the exact same time. Web/entangle/grease are all continuous affects. You can be subject to two (or more) concurrent castings of web/entangle/grease at the exact same time.

-Gak Toid

 

[AuraSeer]

There is one difference. Casting reduce person is an instantaneous affect.

That's not correct. Reduce person has a duration of one minute per level.

 

[GakToid]

That's not correct. Reduce person has a duration of one minute per level.

Let me clarify what I ment.

A) Reduce person says that "Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack.".
B) You only make a save for reduce person at the time it is cast.

Even if Bob readies an action to cast reduce person at the same time Alex does, the spells still come into effect sequentially (not concurrently) and the orc makes the saves as the spells come into effect.

Entangle - "entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area"
Web - "Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save."

Oddity: Does that mean if I move into a web after it's been cast I don't have to make a save?

Basic Question 1 - The "effect" of web or entangle is that the target is entangled. Do you have to make a separate save for each source of entanglement (regardless of source)? Can you be double entanged?

Basic Question 2 - Are a monstrous spider's "sheets of sticky webbing" more like the wall of force spell (a plane between two squares) or the web spell (occupy a full 5 foot wide line).

-Gak Toid

 

[AuraSeer]

Forget about whether the spells are simultaneous or not. It doesn't matter.

If you're subject to two reduce person spells, you must save against each individually. The effects do not stack, they overlap, and only the stronger reducing works. However, even though multiple reduces seem not to do anything, you must still keep track of how many saves you failed. If you get hit with an area dispel magic for instance, one of the reduce effects may go away, but the other will still be working and you will not return to normal size.

Oddity: Does that mean if I move into a web after it's been cast I don't have to make a save?

Yes. The web spell will entangle only creatures who are in the area when the spell is cast. Creatures who later move into the area of effect, say to attack or assist others, do not themselves become entangled.

A monstrous spider's sheet of sticky webbing is different, and does affect creatures who walk into it. If you enter a square with spiderwebbing, you are "trapped as though by a successful web attack"-- which is to say, entangled as by a net, with no save at all.

Basic Question 1 - The "effect" of web or entangle is that the target is entangled. Do you have to make a separate save for each source of entanglement (regardless of source)? Can you be double entanged?

You must make a separate save for every distinct effect, regardless of whether they have the same result. If George the Graceful sets off a complicated trap and is hit with a tanglefoot bag, a net, a spider's web, a web spell, and an entangle spell, he must make a separate save for each.

By the book, multiple entangling effects do not stack, they overlap, just like multiple paralyzes or blindings or whatever.

Basic Question 2 - Are a monstrous spider's "sheets of sticky webbing" more like the wall of force spell (a plane between two squares) or the web spell (occupy a full 5 foot wide line).

The book does not specify, but reading between the lines, it appears that they're planar. That explains why they're difficult to spot.

If a monstrous spider wants to trap flying prey, it can hang the web vertically, on a border between squares. For prey on the ground, it can spin the web horizontally, to trap creatures who step into it.

 

[GakToid]

Thanks AuraSeer.

The book does not specify, but reading between the lines, it appears that they're planar. That explains why they're difficult to spot.

If a monstrous spider wants to trap flying prey, it can hang the web vertically, on a border between squares. For prey on the ground, it can spin the web horizontally, to trap creatures who step into it.

Of course, if it is a plane and spun horizontally, that means it's either at a height of 0 or a height of 5 feet (assuming a 3 dimensional grid). If it's at 5 feet, medium creatures will walk under it. Unless humans are supposed to be medium (tall) sized. I wonder what happens if you step on it (it's at 0 feet)? (I assume you have to make a save.)

One last question. Assume a gargantuan monstrous spider spins a web vertically between two trees. An ogre walks into the web (fails it's spot check). Does the ogre have to cut himself free (or make escape artist checks or make strength checks) from one 5-foot section or four 5-foot sections?

-Gak Toid

 

[AuraSeer]

Remember that the grid is just a convenience, not a physical restriction. A spider could place a web at two feet off the ground, or three inches, or whatever. The game effect is that it works on anyone entering the square.

If a creature larger than Medium size walks into a web, I'd still only require the one check. It would be wrapped in more strands of web, but it would have an proportionally easier time tearing the stuff away.

 

[GakToid]

Thanks again.

Remember that the grid is just a convenience, not a physical restriction. A spider could place a web at two feet off the ground, or three inches, or whatever. The game effect is that it works on anyone entering the square.

You're effectively treating the web like it fills the whole area, not like a planar effect. Which bring me back to my question. Is it planar (between squares) or an area (in squares)? You've answered both ways.

. = empty square
T = tree
| = planar web
w = area web
O = orc moving from left to right

Example 1:

........ ...........
.......T ...........
........|...........
........|...........
......O.|...........
........|...........
........|...........
........|...........
.......T ...........
........ ...........

In example 1 the orc doesn't have to make a spot check until moving from 5 feet to 10 feet from his current position.

Example 2:

...................
.......T...........
.......w...........
.......w...........
......Ow...........
.......w...........
.......w...........
.......w...........
.......T...........
...................

In example 2 the orc makes a spot check immediately upon attempting to enter the next square.

In both cases the orc will be stuck in the same square (5 feet from where he is now).

The only difference is that the orc in example 1 could move up and down between the trees without having to make a spot check. In example 2 he'd be stuck in the web if he tried to move between the trees.

Example 2 makes more sense to me.

If a creature larger than Medium size walks into a web, I'd still only require the one check. It would be wrapped in more strands of web, but it would have an proportionally easier time tearing the stuff away.

I agree. However the description of the web ability of monstrous spiders gives its hitpoints per 5-foot section. Which would imply that you have to do it on square at a time, but that would be inconsistent with the way other area affects work.

-Gak Toid

 

[apsuman]

Multiple Spell Effects (3.5)

-Gak Toid

Wouldn't that last example require you to use a lowercase letter O for the orc?

I would say that in the case of the first grease spell, two saves because the orge has one foot in one save area and one foot in another save area.

but that's what I think.