D&D 5E (2014) Murder In Baldur's Gate/Sundering adventures with 5E

[CapnZapp]

Murder in BG felt more like an info dump than an adventure to me. There was one quick encounter and a whole lot of info about the local lords with nothing much telling you what to do with that info. It seems to assume that PCs are getting involved in the political rivalries, which my players tend to avoid like the plague.

It's certainly not an adventure for everyone. Personally, I think it's a great adventure, but it's one that you sculpt as a group rather than being prescriptive about what happens with it.

I happen to think the adventure material itself is great, while the setup and PC lead-in is completely inappropriate.

(But yes, if your players avoid political rivalry, this one is definitely not for you)



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The intro completely fails to motivate the PCs for what they will be doing during the actual adventure. Sure, it works to sucker them into taking those jobs for the three masterminds.

But then the adventure promptly forgets all about the murder investigation. Even if it's a wild goose chase there needs to be stuff about it; leads, red herrings, what have you. I know my players will want to ask about the actual assignment they got. I know my players will get impatient just doing their masters' increasingly destructive bidding, when there's no progress in the whodunnit whatsoever.

But...

...instead of trying to change the adventure into something it isn't, it would be way better to instead change the intro into something that motivates the PCs to do the kinds of stuff the adventure will later expect them to do!

Instead of posing like the murder mystery with D&D trappings the adventure most assuredly isn't, it would be so much better if the adventure already from the start admitted what a great Warhammer scenario it is...

As a one off with down on their luck scoundrels greedy for fame, recognition, power (or even wealth!), the adventure is great.

As something for regular shiny heroes used to battling monsters and now looking for a high-profile murderer with all the tools of the D&D spell list, not so much.

 

[MerricB]

I happen to think the adventure material itself is great, while the setup and PC lead-in is completely inappropriate.

I agree. Although I think the initial encounter is fantastic (especially in its expanded version), it doesn't properly motivate the PCs.

Cheers!

 

[Saeviomagy]

To me, I think this is best run not as an adventure itself, but as a sequence of events happening in between dungeon trips. To me, there's not enough ways the PCs are actually influencing anything that goes on to make it the focus of the campaign, and there's an awful lot of time that should be occurring between each event.

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree. Although I think the initial encounter is fantastic (especially in its expanded version), it doesn't properly motivate the PCs.

Cheers!

That's the worst part: it's a fantastic intro. Just for some completely different adventure!

 

[CapnZapp]

To me, I think this is best run not as an adventure itself, but as a sequence of events happening in between dungeon trips. To me, there's not enough ways the PCs are actually influencing anything that goes on to make it the focus of the campaign, and there's an awful lot of time that should be occurring between each event.

I understand your sentiment but worry the players won't be able to keep all the details in memory. Worse, that the adventure IS all those details. Who's backstabbing who, which one is in favor by what potentate, what plans you worry the other side hasn't yet put in motion, and so forth.

This is the kind of adventure that needs to be run as a tight ship, immersing the players in the details, ideally making the proceedings so intense and interesting the players never think to take a step back to look at things from an outside rational POV

A much better solution, then, would be to run it, not for the characters that nobly fail to prevent the initial murder, that is outsiders, heroes, the usual D&D protagonists.

And instead run it for characters who witness those events with ambivalence. Characters with personal motivations to climb up those three career ladders. Ideally characters who personally know many of the described BG inhabitants. Characters with flexible morale. Characters that are used to not catching a break, not having a choice. Characters who know their place and accept, nay expect, betrayal.

In short, Warhammer FRP heroes!

 

[RealAlHazred]

To me, I think this is best run not as an adventure itself, but as a sequence of events happening in between dungeon trips. To me, there's not enough ways the PCs are actually influencing anything that goes on to make it the focus of the campaign, and there's an awful lot of time that should be occurring between each event.

The trick might be to have two entirely different things going on. For instance, at the same time that the Bhaal plot is unfolding, you might have a looming threat of goblinoid invasion. In other words, part Murder in Baldur's Gate, part Red Hand of Doom. The only problem is, as has been said, the players need to keep the details clear and have to realize that multiple schemes are moving to fruition, not just one problem with one solution.

 

[rosing-bull]

The trick might be to have two entirely different things going on. For instance, at the same time that the Bhaal plot is unfolding, you might have a looming threat of goblinoid invasion. In other words, part Murder in Baldur's Gate, part Red Hand of Doom. The only problem is, as has been said, the players need to keep the details clear and have to realize that multiple schemes are moving to fruition, not just one problem with one solution.

Hmm, I like this idea a lot. For my own game, I was planning something along the lines of an invasion or attack on Baldur's Gate and the surrounding region anyway, so combining them might be a lot of fun. I feel like it might work best with the first few stages in Murder in Baldur's Gate being somewhat spread out, with the other plot line perhaps seeming more immediate, but eventually the goings-on within the city need to gain momentum and begin to spiral out of control and need to be addressed right away.

But at the same time, I don't want the party to feel like they have to choose one over the other, being forced to weigh the importance of either threat -- that is, external threat or growing tension within the city. I haven't finished reading the adventure, though, so I may not have the best grasp on how it all will play out; I only hope that, with the criminal organizations, militarized police force, political corruption and subjugated minorities, I can turn the adventure -- at least a little bit -- into D&D The Wire.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm in the middle of running this adventure the second time. I can tell you my experiences with it.

One of my groups felt very frustrated that they couldn't actually change anything. Nothing they did would suddenly "fix" the city and make all its problems go away. They were used to typical D&D adventures and wanted to know what they could do to easily solve all the problems. Then a solution didn't immediately present itself, they started complaining.

As for the intro not giving them proper motivation, I agree...to a point. The idea is that the initial introduction gives the PCs popularity and renown in the city. I feel that you should then use this intro to sweep them up in events that are completely out of control. Sure, they may want to figure out who attacked the Duke and why. But Silvershield doesn't particularly care about that. He is convinced it's the work of the Guild. He will say that repeatedly. He feels that their efforts are best spent stopping the Guild which will bring the killers to justice. You aren't going to deny one of the Dukes of the city's request, are you?

Given that Ravenguard's opinion tends to agree with Silvershield on this one and that they both want the PCs to hunt down the Guild, so far I have had no problem transitioning the PCs from investigating the initial murder to helping out with their "patrons'" current missions instead. I just focus on the fact that precisely WHO murdered the Duke isn't what is at issue...the problem is that the city is going to hell and their patrons are concerned about that. They hope the PCs are concerned about it to.

Certain groups will NOT care about it at all. I've already had one player roll up a new character when he realized his character just had no motivation at all to help the city. He wanted to leave and never come back rather than help.

As for the pacing, I feel that having the adventure run at a breakneck pace is precisely the point. After 3 or 4 days, it should be clear that something strange is going on. This many bad things couldn't be happening in the city so quickly without something big happening.

This is precisely the point where I feel you need to start giving them clues toward the Gunpowder Plot. They spend their time tracking down clues towards who is planning the Gunpowder Plot and meanwhile have to deal with the diversions that are Phases 5-10.

 

[Shiroiken]

The intro completely fails to motivate the PCs for what they will be doing during the actual adventure. Sure, it works to sucker them into taking those jobs for the three masterminds.

But then the adventure promptly forgets all about the murder investigation. Even if it's a wild goose chase there needs to be stuff about it; leads, red herrings, what have you. I know my players will want to ask about the actual assignment they got. I know my players will get impatient just doing their masters' increasingly destructive bidding, when there's no progress in the whodunnit whatsoever.

When I ran MiBG for Encounters, I added a bunch of stuff about the attack on the Duke (due to PC intervention, the Duke became the Beast). This led me to add hints and prophesies to add more of the return of Bhaal to the adventure (and give suspense about what's REALLY going on). It worked really well for me, because I put the extra work in, but it was something I felt should have been added in the adventure itself.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm in the middle of running this adventure the second time. I can tell you my experiences with it.

One of my groups felt very frustrated that they couldn't actually change anything. Nothing they did would suddenly "fix" the city and make all its problems go away. They were used to typical D&D adventures and wanted to know what they could do to easily solve all the problems. Then a solution didn't immediately present itself, they started complaining.

It sounds like your experience confirms my theory

As for the intro not giving them proper motivation, I agree...to a point. The idea is that the initial introduction gives the PCs popularity and renown in the city. I feel that you should then use this intro to sweep them up in events that are completely out of control. Sure, they may want to figure out who attacked the Duke and why. But Silvershield doesn't particularly care about that. He is convinced it's the work of the Guild. He will say that repeatedly. He feels that their efforts are best spent stopping the Guild which will bring the killers to justice. You aren't going to deny one of the Dukes of the city's request, are you?

Given that Ravenguard's opinion tends to agree with Silvershield on this one and that they both want the PCs to hunt down the Guild, so far I have had no problem transitioning the PCs from investigating the initial murder to helping out with their "patrons'" current missions instead. I just focus on the fact that precisely WHO murdered the Duke isn't what is at issue...the problem is that the city is going to hell and their patrons are concerned about that. They hope the PCs are concerned about it to.

I can understand a want to rationalize the designer's choices, but in this case... no. I honestly think both the intro and the adventure is best served by being separated and not used together. It simply is the solution that solves all the issues in one fell swoop.

Certain groups will NOT care about it at all. I've already had one player roll up a new character when he realized his character just had no motivation at all to help the city. He wanted to leave and never come back rather than help.

Which is exactly my point. The risk of this happening was the first thing that came to mind when I read the module. Then it took me quite a while to really break down what exactly felt wrong about it (since it is awesome in so many other regards), until it hit me that the intro and the main adventure isn't playing the same game or in the same genre even.

As for the pacing, I feel that having the adventure run at a breakneck pace is precisely the point. After 3 or 4 days, it should be clear that something strange is going on. This many bad things couldn't be happening in the city so quickly without something big happening.

I agree completely.

I fear it would be a huge mistake to try and run this concurrently with something else both in general but especially if you do it because you're trying to wrestle with your characters motivations.

This is precisely the point where I feel you need to start giving them clues toward the Gunpowder Plot. They spend their time tracking down clues towards who is planning the Gunpowder Plot and meanwhile have to deal with the diversions that are Phases 5-10.

Probably true.

(What I personally think is that the writers got so enamoured with their idea that the PCs are helplessly swept along, that they completely forgot to add DM advice on how to give the PCs agency... but that's just me)

To be completely clear:

I think Murder... is an awesome adventure, but I would never even try to make it work for standard D&D heroes.