Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition

Silvercat Moonpaw

Adventurer
Seems a pretty easy fix, then: just enforce PL caps on all forms of damage. Requires maybe one line added. Maybe allow a break of max +5 for crits and Autofire only, and don't allow the Improved Critical feat.

(And I'm not pointing this at you, Doug. This is for the system.)

EDIT: Actually don't forget to remove All-Out Attack. And dodge bonus could be changed to only a -2 Defense + any Dodge Focus feat the player chooses to buy.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

coyote6

Adventurer
FWIW, you don't add Slam damage on top of another attack's damage; "Use this in place of your normal Strength damage". There's nothing under Slam that exempts it from PL caps, either, so I've always assumed it's capped.

Invisibility, OTOH, I will agree can be a problem. It's fairly well out of genre for an invisible superhero to have an attack equal to their non-invisible teammates, with the possible exception of Invisible Woman. I haven't read FF in a decade, so she might be running around fully invisble, blasting folks with force fields nowadays; but last time I checked, she didn't do that all the time.

The thread on ATT had some very good points, re: PL.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
FWIW, you don't add Slam damage on top of another attack's damage; "Use this in place of your normal Strength damage". There's nothing under Slam that exempts it from PL caps, either, so I've always assumed it's capped.
Good point. He had another 10 speed as one of his Super-Speed alternate powers, for a total of 20. It may have been that and the +4 for an accelerated move plus Power Attack for a total of 29 damage.

Interesting question regarding whether an ability ignores PL limits if there is no mention of it. Some feats, Dodge Focus for example, say they are affected by PL limits, whereas others such as Master Plan specify that they are not. I'm not sure what the rule is when it says nothing.
 

AllisterH

First Post
Ironically...I find that the supers game stayed "true to form" the more of a RUMBLES (*) type comic book fan was playing

Mainly becuase they INTENTIONALLY limit themselves.

* RUMBLES is a popular subforum on CBR where posters do not only the typical "who would win vs" battles but esoteric things like "just what does it mean that the Flash can circle the world in under a minute".

What I found more of a problem was the "casual" comic book fan who when given the opportunity to actually be in control of the character instead of reading it, actually start thinking about what they can do with their powers.
 

kaomera

Explorer
How would you imagine it would be broken? Being able to do fantastic things is part and parcel of the genre, though it does require restraint on the part of the players to stick to genre.
While this is true, to a point, of any genre / system, I think this is exactly what causes problems in supers games. Personally I like PL, it's the tightest such system I've seen in a supers RPG, and it's specific enough that IME you don't get players trying to ignore it or work around it as in some other systems. But PL is not the same thing as Level in D&D.

Concept has to come first in M&M character creation, and PL is part of that concept. This isn't a concept that I found easy to come to grips with simply from reading the M&M rules, and I kind of wish they had done a book specifically on character creation for 2e. I found reading the ATT, and especially the Roll Call forum to be very enlightening. Specifically, seeing different builds of the same character at different PLs. PL8 Batman is a different character from PL10 Batman, or PL12 Batman.

The problem that I found I was having when I ran a bunch of 3.5 players through M&M character creation was that some of them where not really trying to make a supers / comic-book character. And even among those who "got it" no two players had the same idea of what the genre entailed. There's a lot of different sub-genres represented in comics, and they all have different expectations regarding the characters you'd find in them. Even a given character is often depicted at many different levels of power and possibly in different sub-genres within different books.

One thing about M&M is that GM approval is a much more important step in character creation than in most other games. Usually in D&D the DM can simply disallow elements he feels might be or might become (or even just are) a problem. Supers games are generally open-ended enough that this can become a much more significant issue. In M&M, for example, there are a lot of ways to push past PL limits, that's a deliberate part of the game's design. But a character who's hitting multiples of them, like the speedster Doug McCrae mentioned, is a problem waiting to happen. The optimal solution, I think, is to re-design the character.

I had one player who was really enamored of autofire, and really wanted to make a martial-artist with an autofire punch, a high attack bonus, and a very consistent ability to feint. I was willing to allow it, but only on an attack that was otherwise below the PL cap, and I wouldn't let him buy more than one "point" of autofire (ie: no 1/1 ratio or +10 max). He grumbled a bit, but I think the character turned out well.

The thing is - you don't need to do this sort of thing (or at the very least not much) in most non-supers games. If every player shows up with an X-level character, and no-one's used any rules sources I asked them not to, I can be pretty sure that everything's going to work out, most of the time. I find that supers-games as a rule are less robust that way. What I like PL for is, as I mentioned above, part of the character concept. It helps define which Batman (ore Spiderman or whomever) you're working with. And it also fills in some of the numbers for you, which given all of the possible choices in M&M is rather helpful in and of itself.

There was another player that I had an even more serious problem with. After a whole lot of discussion I came to the conclusion that he was only ever going to compare his character to the other PCs, and as a result would never feel that his character was a "real superhero" unless it was just flat out a higher PL than the other characters. I ended up having to un-invite him to the game because, despite his protests otherwise (which all included the caveat that I just let him play the character he wanted), I didn't feel that I could make the game fun for him and the rest of the group at the same time. (I know you can totally run a game with different-PL characters, but there where two other players who flat-out didn't want to give that a try and I think the character he wanted would have been too much above the other PCs for it to work well.)

Anyway, to get back on the topic of 3e: it really helped me to have the builds on the Atomic Think Tank forums to look through, seeing how different things could be done with characters I knew something about. Seeing Batman or Superman statted up is more useful to me than looking at the Costumed Adventurer or Paragon archetypes. So I'm hopeful that character creation in 3e will be that much easier to show / teach with the DC roster books.

But I'd still love to see a full-on "secrets of successful M&M character creation" book. I would also, especially given that M&M is usually a team game while most comic-book superteams are made up of characters that have or at least had their own books, like to see something more in regards to making a functional team as opposed to a bunch of loners. Something like the Roles in 4e D&D would interest me very much, although I freely admit that I have little to no idea how to bring that concept to M&M...
 

Elric

First Post
Design journal #4 for DC adventures is up and includes Green Lantern's stats: DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #4 - DC ADVENTURES

Informed speculation: The Atomic Think Tank • View topic - DC Adventures Design Journals

The Shadow said:
Jameson said:
I'm guessing Parry Defense is for melee combat and dodge for ranged (barring powers like deflect).

That's how it works in True20, also written by Steve. So I think you can take that to the bank. (I hope that True20's going to be getting a similar revamp along these same lines!)

Wow, lots of stuff to absorb here! I like combat bonus being changed into two stats. I like the static defenses; though the lack of Reflex was initially surprising, in retrospect it's obvious... Now that Dodge and Reflex are both static, there's no point in keeping them separate.
 

ok, so lets see what we have here now that we have an example...


Green Lantern PL14

ok, pl 14 is a good starting spot.... more of the same...

Abilities 42
Powers 100
Advantages 3
Skills 33
Defenses 38
Total 216

so I wonder is this a really experanced level 14, or does level 14 start near 216pp???
Abilities
Strength 2 Fighting 5
Stamina 2 Intellect 1
Agility 2 Awareness 3
Dexterity 3 Presence 3

and that is diffrent...:confused:

so 8 abilities, I wonder what makes agility and dex diffrent, most systems use one or the other, and fighting just seams weird...

we already knew that the score is now the mod, so that looks like:
14 Str 15 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha
more or less... but how does fighting work, is that your attack bonus like 2e???

If you add them up it is 21, so 2pts per (cost 42)


Powers
Power Ring: 124 points, Removable (-24 points) • 100 points
ok, removable instead of device, I wonder if that is the end of the device set???

AI and Database: Features 2 • 2 points
Communication: Senses 1 (Communication Link to Central Power Battery) • 1 point
pretty straight forward, no suprise there....

Flight: Flight 14 (32,000 MPH), Movement 4 (Environmental Adaptation: Zero-G, Space Travel 3) • 36 points
nice no real suprise there

Force Field: Protection 12, Impervious 12; Immunity 9 (Life Support) • 33 points
I like the life support built into the force field, and it looks like those each cost 1 pt (same as 2e)

Force Manipulation: 36-point Array
Force Blast: Ranged Damage 18 • 36 points
AE: Force Constructs: Create 18 • 1 point
AE: Lifting: Move Object 18 • 1 point
I like this, hopefully more of what it means will be leaked soon, but it does seam easy on the reader so far...


Scanning Beam: Senses 6 (Analytical Auditory, Chemical, and Visual) • 6 points
Universal Translator: Comprehend Languages 4 • 8 points

again no real suprises there...

Advantages
Fearless, Teamwork, Ultimate Will

I think we just found the new feats... and all three seam straight forward...

Skills
Athletics 4 (+6), Close Combat: Unarmed 3 (+8), Deception 4 (+7), Expertise: Law Enforcement 8 (+9), Expertise: Military 8 (+9), Insight 8 (+11), Investigation 4 (+5), Perception 4 (+7), Persuasion 4 (+7), Ranged Combat: Power Ring 7 (+10), Vehicles 12 (+15)

ok, this seams pretty much par for the cource, except notice that close combat:unarmed adds the 5 fighting, but the ranged combat power ring adds only +3 (Dex maby)


Offense
Initiative +2
Power Ring +10, Ranged, Damage 18
Unarmed +8, Close, Damage 2
ok, so I am a little bit lost here, the damage unarmed looks like str and the ring damage appears to be the rank of the power...

Defense
Dodge 12
Parry 10
Toughness 14/2*

Fortitude 10

Will 18
*Without Power Ring Protection.

I wonder what parry is, but boy do I love AC and ref being combined )like saga rule)



Complications
Guilt: Hal feels at least partially responsible for the terrible acts of Parallax while the fear entity controlled him.
Power Loss: The power ring needs periodic recharging and issues a warning as its power runs low.
Reputation: Hal Jordan is a maverick in nearly all aspects of his life and known for having issues with authority. He is also both famous and infamous as Green Lantern.
Weakness: Green Lantern power rings depend on the willpower of the wearer; the maximum rank of the ring's effects is equal to the wearer's Will rank, and moments of self-doubt or hesitation can cause the ring to fail.

I am not sure if this is just fluff or part of the stats, I wonder how this all figures in...


did anyone notice something I missed?
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
so I wonder is this a really experanced level 14, or does level 14 start near 216pp???
Really experienced PL 14. If you read the previous preview (number 3), it talks about how these characters have a lot more points than a starting character of their PL (Batman, at PL 12, has almost as many points as a starting PL 19 character would).
I am not sure if this is just fluff or part of the stats, I wonder how this all figures in...
It's both.
Complication is a game mechanic for specific fluff. It's in 2e, and looks to be the same in 3e.
Those are the Complications of Hal Jordan, Green Lantern. So he gets a Hero Point when his ring is running out of juice and will need to recharge, or when his guilt over the Paralax incident comes up, or when his Reputation as a maverick kicks in, or when he has a moment of self-doubt and he loses some (or all) of his ring's powers.

It's actually very instructive.
 


Walking Dad

First Post
...

so 8 abilities, I wonder what makes agility and dex diffrent, most systems use one or the other, and fighting just seams weird...

we already knew that the score is now the mod, so that looks like:

more or less... but how does fighting work, is that your attack bonus like 2e???

If you add them up it is 21, so 2pts per (cost 42)

...

M 2 cents: The changes were made to make all abilities to be of similar worth.

In D&D 3.5, in most builds, Dex and Con were much more important than Int or Cha.

M&M moved a bit away from it and 3e takes the next step.


I really hope for a sample combat soon.


---

What I really miss a bit is the crunchy part about the powers. I hope the core book builds are 'simple' to make them easier to understand for new gamers, but are not the end of power customization.
(Am I the only one who wants to know how they handled M&M2's variable powers? If they are not included, that could be a breaking point for me.)
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top