My 3 quibbles with 4e

[Ulrick]

I used to be a strong proponent of 4e. But as I've played/DMed the game weekly in the last 4 months, my enthusiasm has waned somewhat because of the following three reasons. Please don't get me wrong, I don't want this to turn into a "bash 4e thread." I would like some constructive advice to my concerns.

1. All the Special Powers
Even at lower levels, all the classes have special powers--which makes them not so-special, and a somewhat a pain to keep track of in combat. Many PC at-will powers (especially the Warlord) often affect other PCs until the end of a round. With six players, this can be difficult to keep track of--even for the players, who must remember if they get bonuses or not. Now, stack these powers with whatever conditions the monsters dish out, and things get complicated. (I one time had a group of NPCs with the "mark" engage the fighters of the PCs--everybody marked each other, it got confusing).

How do people keep track of all these modifiers? With chits or other such markers?

Also--and this is more rhetorical--if everybody has special powers, then they really aren't so special. So why have them? What ever happened to "I attack and do X amount of damage?"



2. Combats aren't scary for the players
With all the healing surges, cleric's minor actions to heal, and finally three saving throws when a PC drops, most combats just don't seem intense as they should be for the players. This sort of fits in with this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/247429-d-d-4th-edition-creatures-not-scary.html

Monsters just don't seem to do as much damage as they should.

In 3.5e, players would think along the terms of CR--that was easily solved with tossing in higher CR monsters. But in 4e, there's just so many second chances that even more powerful monsters just don't scare the PCs like they should.

What can be done?



3. Combat Grind
This has been covered in other threads, so I won't belabor it here. One solution is to use more minions, but that makes combat even less scary. I'm sort of at an impasse with this, and haven't found a desirable solution.

 

[Kinneus]

I have to admit, #1 was one thing that initially put me off of 4e. Even a relatively simple At-Will like Eyebite is rather complicated. "Okay, I'm invisible until my next turn, but only for this one enemy." When I first read that I thought, "Man, I'm never going to remember that in play."

I do think they went kind of over-board with the "until the end of your next turn" effects. I often find myself avoiding those powers, even the very good ones, simply because it can all get quite complicated, quite fast.

I don't agree with the second part of #1, though. I don't think the game would benefit from having some classes be "special" and some not be "special". I've always hated the 2nd and 3rd edition fighter (and 'tank' classes in general in almost every MMORPG I've ever played) for that very reason; because you do the same dang thing every dang turn. When 4e came around, I was pleasantly surprised that I frequently found myself playing the Defender, and what's more, I was actually liking it.

 

[pawsplay]

Everybody wins, everybody gets prizes.

 

[ExploderWizard]

#1) Its everyone's birthday all the time and everyone gets presents-or the unfun begins.

#2) 4E combat can be deadly. Due to the balance inherent in the system you will be aware of it long before it actually happens.

#3) See #2

 

[frankthedm]

2. Combats aren't scary for the players

Monsters just don't seem to do as much damage as they should.

In 3.5e, players would think along the terms of CR--that was easily solved with tossing in higher CR monsters. But in 4e, there's just so many second chances that even more powerful monsters just don't scare the PCs like they should.

What can be done?

There are some monsters that have much more damage than their level would indicate, but this is an impasse where i do think you should look at other rule systems. IMHO 4E was designed to prevent a lone lucky crit from taking a player's character out of the combat. Characters are assumed to get hit repeatedly in combat & get their HP worn down at a somewhat steady pace while they do the same to their foes.

WFRP, Savage Worlds and True20 have much more 'swing' than 4E.

 

[Wik]

#2 isn't a problem for me, because I can scare my players. As for #3... yeah, that's a problem, but just as much as it was in 3e.

#1 can be a problem to keep track of. We use tokens to indicate effects, and I do a pretty good job of remembering monster effects on PCs. And if a player forgets a bonus... oh well - they have a little bit of time to remember, but I'm not going to go back three rounds because they forgot to add 2 to a roll.

 

[Mort]

I used to be a strong proponent of 4e. But as I've played/DMed the game weekly in the last 4 months, my enthusiasm has waned somewhat because of the following three reasons. Please don't get me wrong, I don't want this to turn into a "bash 4e thread." I would like some constructive advice to my concerns.

I've noticed that most of the stuff I disliked about 3e has been fixed to my satisfaction - the three things you mention haven't been a problem in my group (with the exception of the last one at first).

1. All the Special Powers
Even at lower levels, all the classes have special powers--which makes them not so-special, and a somewhat a pain to keep track of in combat. Many PC at-will powers (especially the Warlord) often affect other PCs until the end of a round. With six players, this can be difficult to keep track of--even for the players, who must remember if they get bonuses or not. Now, stack these powers with whatever conditions the monsters dish out, and things get complicated. (I one time had a group of NPCs with the "mark" engage the fighters of the PCs--everybody marked each other, it got confusing).

How do people keep track of all these modifiers? With chits or other such markers?

Also--and this is more rhetorical--if everybody has special powers, then they really aren't so special. So why have them? What ever happened to "I attack and do X amount of damage?"

The problem in prior editions is that some classes got "special powers" and some didn't - this led to the ones that did completely dominating as levels went higher. As important, it's fairly lopsided when one character can look at his sheet and have many options for any given situation and another character usually have 1 one option (I hit it).

With power cards (printed the character builder) keeping track of powers has been pretty easy. With the DM screen and simple paper, keeping track of conditions has been simple - my group went through high level 3e play (through epic) compared to that 4e record keeping is child's play.

2. Combats aren't scary for the players
With all the healing surges, cleric's minor actions to heal, and finally three saving throws when a PC drops, most combats just don't seem intense as they should be for the players. This sort of fits in with this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/247429-d-d-4th-edition-creatures-not-scary.html

Monsters just don't seem to do as much damage as they should.

In 3.5e, players would think along the terms of CR--that was easily solved with tossing in higher CR monsters. But in 4e, there's just so many second chances that even more powerful monsters just don't scare the PCs like they should.

What can be done?

I'm putting my group through the Scales of War adventure path - and there are some tough fights in there. Heck the 2nd fight of the 1st adventure is a TPK waiting to happen if the group is not careful. That said it's not often as immediately lethal as 3.5 (where by high levels save or die is common place). To me this is a good thing, I absolutely hated how ridiculously short and lethal high level 3e could be, there are games where short and lethal is appropriate but I don't think this should be it.
As for what can be done? As always, put in encounters that challenge the players - this sounds quaint but I haven't found it to be too hard, and it works.

3. Combat Grind
This has been covered in other threads, so I won't belabor it here. One solution is to use more minions, but that makes combat even less scary. I'm sort of at an impasse with this, and haven't found a desirable solution.

I have noticed this as well. One thing: don't be afraid to artificially speed up combat by having monsters drop early- If you know how the combat is playing out no need to drag it.

 

[Cadfan]

Also--and this is more rhetorical--if everybody has special powers, then they really aren't so special. So why have them? What ever happened to "I attack and do X amount of damage?"

The game isn't trying to make powers "cool" in a "exclusivity" sense. They're trying to make them "cool" as in "I have a tool that does things I want to do" sense. In that version of cool, rarity isn't relevant. What matters is that you have a tool that lets you do something useful, and maybe something that other people can't do. Of course they have a tool as well.

As for basic hitting and dealing damage, its still there, its just that the things that used to be feats that modified your basic hitting and dealing damage are now more common, and merged with your at will attack powers.

2. Combats aren't scary for the players
With all the healing surges, cleric's minor actions to heal, and finally three saving throws when a PC drops, most combats just don't seem intense as they should be for the players. This sort of fits in with this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/247429-d-d-4th-edition-creatures-not-scary.html

Monsters just don't seem to do as much damage as they should.

One of the design goals was to make a game where a character could be pushed down into a danger zone, where they'd be totally screwed if they didn't get help, and then give other players the tools to help them.

Maybe thinking of things that way helps, maybe not, but that's how it is. At least in my group, being at 8 hit points and needing healing NOW gives a good intensity. They can get the healing, sure, but its a limited resource, it doesn't heal them to full, second wind costs a standard action and prevents them from improving their situation by attacking and damaging an enemy, etc.

 

[darjr]

never mind

 

[FireLance]

1. All the Special Powers
Even at lower levels, all the classes have special powers--which makes them not so-special, and a somewhat a pain to keep track of in combat. Many PC at-will powers (especially the Warlord) often affect other PCs until the end of a round. With six players, this can be difficult to keep track of--even for the players, who must remember if they get bonuses or not. Now, stack these powers with whatever conditions the monsters dish out, and things get complicated. (I one time had a group of NPCs with the "mark" engage the fighters of the PCs--everybody marked each other, it got confusing).

How do people keep track of all these modifiers? With chits or other such markers?

Also--and this is more rhetorical--if everybody has special powers, then they really aren't so special. So why have them? What ever happened to "I attack and do X amount of damage?"

Maybe it's because I've been playing in a smaller group (usually 3-4 players), but I haven't had a problem with keeping track of bonuses and other effects. I also have a set of metallic rings in various colors that I bought from a stationery shop (I believe they are commonly used to hold punched paper together) which I drape over minis to indicate marks and other conditions. If the fighter attacks a monster and marks him, I'd put a silver ring on the monster's mini, for example, and if the paladin challenges another creature, I'd put a gold ring on it. When a monster or PC gets bloodied, it gets a red ring, and so on.

Also, I don't have a problem with special powers not feeling special because everyone has different powers. Again, perhaps playing with a smaller group helps. The fighter is the only PC that can mark. The warlord is the only PC who can heal. The ranger is the only PC who can quarry a target, and so on.

2. Combats aren't scary for the players
With all the healing surges, cleric's minor actions to heal, and finally three saving throws when a PC drops, most combats just don't seem intense as they should be for the players. This sort of fits in with this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/247429-d-d-4th-edition-creatures-not-scary.html

Monsters just don't seem to do as much damage as they should.

In 3.5e, players would think along the terms of CR--that was easily solved with tossing in higher CR monsters. But in 4e, there's just so many second chances that even more powerful monsters just don't scare the PCs like they should.

What can be done?

I personally find that even without the fear of PC death, the players don't enjoy being defeated or forced to retreat. In my view, the dislike of defeat produces pretty much the same reactions from the players as the fear of PC death. In addition, I don't see the fear of PC death as a desirable end in itself, so I don't really feel the need to scare the players. Perhaps if you could elaborate a bit more on why you think combats should be scary for the players, I might be able to provide more suggestions.

3. Combat Grind
This has been covered in other threads, so I won't belabor it here. One solution is to use more minions, but that makes combat even less scary. I'm sort of at an impasse with this, and haven't found a desirable solution.

In addition, I haven't noticed the grind problem in my games. Perhaps the smaller group is a factor, as that also means I tend to send a smaller number of monsters against the PCs. In addition, I tend to use more skirmishers, brutes and artillery monsters and fewer soldiers, controllers and lurkers. That may also be a contributing factor.