My 3 quibbles with 4e

[dm4hire]

Mike -

Have you guys thought of doing a free video seminar covering these issues? Maybe record a seminar at GenCon, Origins, or some other convention you attend and making that available for those who can’t go? The books tend to take a person so far, as does explaining it here, but actually seeing it demonstrated would be a big help to some people. Just a thought.

 

[delericho]

1. All the Special Powers
Even at lower levels, all the classes have special powers--which makes them not so-special, and a somewhat a pain to keep track of in combat.

Yep, I agree with this, somewhat. Basically, it's a feature of the way the game is designed. So, if you don't like the powers structure, it's pretty clear that 4e won't be the game for you. Obviously, if you like the powers structure, then that's good.

IOW, I think it's a feature, not a bug, albeit a feature that is a contributor to my distaste for the edition.

2. Combats aren't scary for the players

I disagree, or at least I don't think this is any different from any previous edition. At their heart, the monsters in the MM (any edition) are nothing more than a mathematical construct, and not inherently scary at all. It's all down to how the DM presents and uses the creatures, in 4e, 3e, or any other RPG really.

3. Combat Grind

Yeah, this is a known (if debated) flaw in the system. Personally, I think the designers went a little far in removing the swing from the game. Perhaps the simplest fix is to reduce hit point numbers from many creatures, especially in 'unimportant' encounters, thus allowing the PCs to deal with them faster.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see a fix for this relatively soon, whether in DMG2, eDragon, or perhaps in a semi-official form on a designer's blog.

 

[CapnZapp]

1. All the Special Powers

2. Combats aren't scary for the players

3. Combat Grind

I don't think returning to basic attacks is the solution.

If at-wills are kept reasonably simple, they do seem to add something to game-play. Besides, if you want you can always spam one over and over (which makes you have to remember only that one).

As for conditions that are placed all over; yes, it's possible the designers went a bit overboard with this. If fewer powers generated conditions the times combat becomes a mess would be reduced.

Removing the assumption a grid is used is a good start. If as a designer you can't assume people are using minis and counters, you will have to get better at not spamming so many conditions.

As for the grind and scariness: remember to throw the DM encounter guidelines out the window.

I'm running a sandbox game where my PCs are currently third level. They've already fought (and won) against a level 8 Elite, and they've fought (and ran away from) a pair of level 10 Tomb Guardians. They've also started an argument with their boss at the time, a level 6 halfling who I gave sneak attack. The argument ended in violence, and the halfling won initiative: the resulting two sneak attacks brought the PC from good to three hp short of dead in two straight attacks. I think they got a healthy level of respect (and hatred) for him that day...

I can't be sure of course, but I hope to have created a state of alarm not that much different from 3E. I have also proposed the "max dmg" variant (discussed here at ENWorld several times), but so far, they haven't taken the bait, preferring to roll their dice.

Besides, if an encounter takes one and a half hour, none of us wants to waste time fighting "easy" encounters where the only suspense is "will I lose two healing surges, or can I manage using only one". Yawn.

Also, don't be afraid to simply cut short any fight where it's apparent the monster's lost and the party's won. Simply say "and the remaining enemies die", give out full XP for these foes, and move on.

But yes, "scaring" the players (or more accurately, having your players respect the power of the gameworld and its inhabitants) is a bit more work than in 3E.

You might also want to check out the new initiative by Necromancer Games; "Classic 4E" which probably will end up fixing some of your issues!

Link: 4E "Classic" - General - Necromancer Games - Message Board - Yuku

 

[Ariosto]

1. MerricB pretty much covered it, I think. We typically use different colors of glass beads as markers, but more informative ones could be devised.

I happen not to find most of the powers as "cool" or whatever as most people do, but they're a key part of the game.

2. What's scary? Not knowing what one faces can be suspenseful, and sometimes revelation can be shocking. It can be dreadful to know that as matters stand, you're going to take hefty damage each round until you're dead. Ongoing damage in combination with other effects is one way to achieve that. Losing access to healing surges seems to freak out a lot of folks; they'll take rests to try to keep that maximized.

3. MORALE. Monsters should not always fight to the death even though the conclusion is effectively foregone.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I would like some constructive advice to my concerns.

Ask and ye shall receive! Well, ye shall receive 'feedback' anyway, not sure how constructive it will be ...

1-a. All the Special Powers
How do people keep track of all these modifiers? With chits or other such markers?

We've been able to keep track of this in our heads (mostly - you get used to it), but chits or cards are a great idea. If a player has a Warlord especially they could hand out a physical marker (like a playing card) to represent the +1. DMs could hand out cards for conditions too. I think there's a fine line as to whether this is helpful or "too much passing things around" though, which is why my group just makes the effort to remember this sort of thing.

I also like to use scrap paper to track HP, AP, Surges, etc. Simply writing down "slowed" next to my HP total (and then crossing it off once the condition is alleviated) is an easy fix.


1-b. Also--and this is more rhetorical--if everybody has special powers, then they really aren't so special. So why have them?

But they're all different. Each PC is good at something. Also, the melee classes are still cool past 8th level even without their equipment! (that was a slightly sarcastic tone of voice, but I genuinely am happy that spellcasters don't have a monopoly on all the cool toys anymore)


1-c. What ever happened to "I attack and do X amount of damage?"
That still exists. It's called "Basic Attack."


2. Combats aren't scary for the players
What can be done?

You have faced Irontooth, haven't you?

Honestly I haven't had this problem. Just in my last session the LT Shifter Str-Cleric with 20 Str (sounds badass, right?) got themselves in a bad tactical position (flanked on four sides) when a whole slew of Goblin Minions shifted 2 squares each and each hit. Went from full HP to 3 HP in one round and was still surrounded. That's scary enough for the player (and fun for me!), and those were just Minions!

Maybe you're just not going for the jugular like you should be.


3. Combat Grind

Well, as discussed in the other threads you can make combat "interesting" in many ways. Not every fight is like that though, so I've changed the varieties monsters come in. Instead of Minion, Normal, Elite and Solo I have Weak, Normal, Tough, Elite and Solo.

Minions are gone (replaced with 'Weak'). Elite and Solo are the same as before.

Weak is just like the MM listed Normal entry but with 1/4 the HP total; my Normal has 1/2 HP of the MM listed Normal, and my 'Tough' is equivalent to the MM listed Normal. Most fights are with the "new Normal" monsters, which reduces grind considerably. It's also easier to add a couple more monsters to the ranks without endangering the PCs too much, but the extra few monsters on the board open up a lot of tactical options that keep things interesting.

 

[EATherrian]

I'm not a huge fan of 4E, or even 3e for that matter but I'll give me ideas here anyhow.

1) I admit I don't like all the powers. I used to mostly DM and when I wanted to play I'd play a fighter since he just had to move and hit. Playing the new edition, there is no truly simple class. I can see it as a problem in that context. As for conditions and marks and such, we use different colored beads.

2) I don't see this. Maybe it's just our DM but combat for us so far has been very close to deadly. In fact, this is the first time I've played (in 20+ years) where the threat of a TPK comes so often. We've pulled it out, but I'm actually more leery of monsters now since I don't know what they do, and surprises are easier to add.

3) This is a problem with any game that involves a visual / spatial representation. It's the reason I didn't use miniatures until I was forced to with 3E. I'd like to try 4E without miniatures, but I still can't figure out how to do the move / shift x powers right. Any advice there is appreciated.

So far, although I'm not really a huge fan of 4E, I think it is an enjoyable game. If I could get over my personal feelings / attachments to history it might be a great game on its own. As a D&D game it's... different. Not bad, not as good as 2E.

 

[Ulrick]

1. MerricB pretty much covered it, I think. We typically use different colors of glass beads as markers, but more informative ones could be devised.

.....

3. MORALE. Monsters should not always fight to the death even though the conclusion is effectively foregone.

Ya know, I used to use morale with previous editions! Why didn't I think of that. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.

And I'll definitely look at using beads or chits.

You might also want to check out the new initiative by Necromancer Games; "Classic 4E" which probably will end up fixing some of your issues!

Link: 4E "Classic" - General - Necromancer Games - Message Board - Yuku

I will definitely check out the link! Thank you!

I can't help you with #1. That's pretty much part of the game as it is now.

However, for #2 an #3 I'd be curious to hear how you are building encounters. It sounds like things are a little too easy for the players. Here's what I'd suggest:

Skew your encounters toward higher level brutes and artillery.

Brutes do lots of damage and have low accuracy, but using higher level ones counters the accuracy issue.

Artillery has high accuracy and low damage, but the damage adds up with two or three of them. If they are higher level, they also pack a relatively heavier punch.

I'd recommend aiming to spend your XP budget on fewer but higher level critters of those two roles. So, if the party has 5 PCs, use 4 brutes and artillery, with higher levels to set the encounter's level to where you want it.

If you're using lots of brutes that are below the party's level, soldiers, and lurkers, encounters might drag out. The brutes miss all the time, but have lots of hit points so they take a while to grind down. Soldiers have high ACs, so they take a while to beat down, and lurkers have a naturally tendency to spin things out.

Also, if you are using lots of elites and solos I'd recommend dialing those back a bit.

If the changes I recommended work, then look to mix things up a bit.

IME, and after spending a fair amount of time following threads about the grind, I think the issue comes down to a mis-match between how the DM builds encounters and how the players handle them. I think there are certain combos of roles and DM tactics that are better matches for some groups than others.

Now that you mention tactics and encounter builds...
I notice now that I have a tendency to use skirmishers with defenders. The players themselves use skirmish-like tactics. They usually don't focus on one monster at a time, but just spread-out their attacks. I'm not sure why they do this--maybe they don't want to waste powers on a guy that's bloodied

So what you're saying, is that certain types of tactics will cancel each other out and cause combat grind? Such as: Brutes attacking a party that use brute tactics, or defenders attacking a partying that using defender tactics.

In any case, I'll definitely use your advice. Thank you so much.

----
As an aside: It seems that 4e requires a new way of thinking (especially on the DM's part) to get the most out of the game. This is the first D&D version that specified monster and character "roles," and where all character classes have special powers (like the fighter).

Maybe I'm playing 4e with a 3.5e mindset...

 

[OchreJelly]

1. As to item #1 I have tried many approaches. As others have said, remembering player's powers is the province of players. This is largely true for any edition. The DM has enough of his bandwidth being taken up by what he has to run, that it's unfair to expect him to audit every PC action. I was thinking about this when I read some of the criticism of the PA Podcasts where Chris Perkins was missing things like player marks and tide-of-iron without a shield, but as a DM actually running an encounter at the table, it's easy to miss stuff like that.

But enough general-speak! Here are some practical measures I have adopted. Glass beads or chits for marks and 'bloodied' conditions are very handy. IME marks, bloody, curses, and quarries are the most common (party dependant of course). I have 'monster worksheets' I typed up and have printed ahead of time. They are basically boxes of HPs and defenses with a side area I can enter in conditions. It tends to help me stay organized. I also tend to print monster info ahead of time, so I can write directly on the sheet and make notes, check-off encounter power use etc.

As an aside, (if Mike is still reading): I really, REALLY wish the DDI Encounter Builder went the extra step and had a streamlined combat-ready print option of each monster entry in the encounter you build complete with a combat worksheet attached to each entry.

 

[Obryn]

Honestly I haven't had this problem. Just in my last session the LT Shifter Str-Cleric with 20 Str (sounds badass, right?) got themselves in a bad tactical position (flanked on four sides) when a whole slew of Goblin Minions shifted 2 squares each and each hit. Went from full HP to 3 HP in one round and was still surrounded. That's scary enough for the player (and fun for me!), and those were just Minions!

Maybe you're just not going for the jugular like you should be.

Hell, last session my group got their collective asses kicked by a room.

Yes, the room knocked a few of them unconscious.

After that humbling experience, they were a good deal more frightened of the next encounter...

-O

 

[Wombat]

Everybody wins, everybody gets prizes.

Or, to quote Gilbert & Sullivan, "If everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody."