My 7th level party just killed a young adult dragon!

[Holy Bovine]

well, yet another example to not have Polymorph Other in a campaign.

**snicker**

You are trolling now aren't you?


Anyway a young adult Black Dragon is only CR8 and it was unlucky to miss a Fort save (I figure at best the DC for the Poly spell was a 20 assuming you had Spell Focus - Transmutation) and you got by its SR of 17 (50/50 chance unless the mage also had spell penetration). Just going by law of averages the Dragon should have made one of those.

But stuff happens and you guys took advantage of its obvious overconfidence and poor tactics

 

[Thorntangle]

Specialized Transmuter, prohibited school is Evocation. Spell Focus (Trans) + Greater Spell Focus (Trans) + Int 20 (Headband of Int) = DC 23 for 4th lvl Trans spells

= Basically a 50/50 for both the SR and the Fort save rolls for the YA Dragon

 

[Holy Bovine]

Oops forgot about Greater Spell Focus (and didn't figure you'd have a Headband of Intellect yet). Still 50/50 for two rolls the Dragon should have made one of them.

BTW what did you turn it into?

 

[Oni]

well, yet another example to not have Polymorph Other in a campaign.

Your joking, right? It seems pretty obvious that it wasn't the spell that ruined this encounter, but rather that the dragon was played very poorly.

Honestly your starting to sound like a broken record. The minute I read the original post I thought Reapersaurus was going to respond complaining about polymorph.



[edit: I would like to apologize to the DM of the encounter if I come across as being harsh, if s/he is out there reading this. I've said what I've said, and I'll not try to hide it, but I do not wish to offend you.]

 

[Altalazar]

Maybe the Dragon could have done something better, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would.

The AVERAGE young adult black dragon has an int of only 12 and a 13 wisdom. Slightly above average, but basically a lot dumber and more foolish than many humans. It is also only 51 years old, a young adult, basically the equivalent of a 19-20 year old human - a teenager.

Teenagers can do foolish and rash things, and I think Dragons are probably no exception to this. I think it is not so much that older dragons are clever but instead that only the really clever dragons ever get the chance to grow old.

Really, that this encounter went the way it did was a fluke. It should have been a reasonable risk for the Dragon to do what it did. It just got very very unlucky.

I don't buy the idea that all Dragons are perfect strategists, especially when they are young, inexperienced, and have a lot less intelligence and wisdom than a good chunk of humanity. If anything, they would be more reckless than you would think - just being a dragon would intimidate most people into groveling, cowering, or running. If you get used to that, you aren't going to be very prepared when you do your swoop down against a group that not only doesn't grovel, but can kill you with a single spell.

 

[reapersaurus]

Your joking, right? It seems pretty obvious that it wasn't the spell that ruined this encounter, but rather that the dragon was played very poorly.

Hmm.

It WASN'T the spell that killed it? Maybe i misread the part where the wizard flew, then cast Polymorph Other.

Should I paraphrase the original post that said "(the outcome of the fight) was the most anti-climactic thing (he's) ever seen."

So I insinuate that if he doesn't want an instant-kill spell causing a decrease in the fun and heroic feeling of his game play, it should be removed.

And i get attacked.
Again.
What a surprise.

And actually, that IS a good suggestion, to basically remove all instant-kill spells from the game.
I've got to look into that.
Lemme see... Hold Person, Hold Animal, Hold Monster, Dominate ", Disintigrate, mumble mumble mumble...

 

[reapersaurus]

and to go one step further, it is becoming obvious that ANY DM that plays a dragon as "overconfident", therefore making it easier for his PC's to stand a chance against them, really is doing dragons a disservice.

With all the DC-enhancing spells, feats and magic items out there, and about 1 in 4 mages specializing in that aspect of magery (it seems - that's a ballpark figure), it seems rather suicidal to assume "Oh! I'm a great big dragon that's got all these powers.
These are little player-characters who could never harm ME."

As it seems, given one attack there was a good 25% chance that the dragon would be instantly killed by the mage.

So, in other words, if the dragon gives the party 4 rounds to attack, on averages, the dragon will be dead just from one member of this party.

And WHY would dragons be overconfident in 3E?

 

[Carnifex]

And WHY would dragons be overconfident in 3E?

Because they're one hell of a lot harder in 3e than they ever used to be?

Also consider the fact that a dragon - especially a younger one that doesn't necessarily have access to lots of divination spells etc - won't necessarily know that its taking on people with spells that can flatten it with a bit of luck. After all, it may be that its not an everyday occurance to meet people who can do that...

 

[FoxWander]

that's nothing, listen to this...

You think that's good, my old party stumbled into an old red dragons lair, won the initiative and our wizard cast charm monster on it. One failed save and another failed SR later and the dragon is asking the wizard why he brought friends to it. Quick thinking on my part got the wizard to give the dragon a 'gift' of the Helm of Opposite Alignment we had found earlier. Now our home city has a Lawful Good Red Dragon as Captain of the Guard!

 

[clockworkjoe]

You know, roleplaying games aren't novels or movies. So things like this have to happen. If you don't create a consisent universe where everyone obeys the same 'laws', you create a story not a game.

So a dragon got nailed by a single spell. Things like that should happen. After all, truth is stranger than fiction.

If you won't allow that in a game because it's not 'heroic' or whatever then essentially you've decided to take over the game. If the players are not given ABSOLUTE freedom over the actions and given fair rulings over those actions, then what's the point of playing? You, as the GM have decided that your plan is more important than the players having fun.

Yeah, it sucks as a GM when the players totally ignore your plans or nail the head bad guy with a single shot. Let it be. It's much more interesting than acting out a badly written fantasy novel

I find games where the players are given fair rulings to be much more entertaining than games where the GM has decided in advance what the game will be like. We've all read novels and seen movies where the perfectly good heroes conquer evil and save the day. That's boring. I prefer ones where I can't predict what will happen next and the only way to achieve that is through consisent rules